Having no NRC is better how?

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Would be foolish to play it at the same time and shouldn’t happen.

It should be on right now. Club is the support act/fall back for the Super Rugby season and then a third tier should exist for all those not involved in the International season to continue playing prior to a offseason period that would have to be agreed like the NRL and then Super Rugby Pre Season would begin.

There is no need to reinvent a schedule. Let’s be honest the NZ season schedule should be plug and play. We just need to decide on the teams.

 

[wamberal99]

One of the QLD teams has to be called the Mud Crabs.

 

[kiap]

One of the QLD teams has to be called the Mud Crabs.

They already exist!

 

[RuggaLuva03]

What teams should a revitalised national comp have initially and what teams would be considered for expansion?

 

[RebelYell]

Would only further drive a wedge between the haves and the have-nots in the QPR and Shute Shield. It would be so attractive to transfer to a team who qualify for the 3rd Tier competition regardless of happiness at your own club. Also, what about those contracted players, rising stars, or those on the fringers who do the right thing and stay loyal to their existing clubs - they just miss out on 3rd Tier?

 

[Highlander35]

A non-comprehensive list of questions leadership will have to answer, and convince their stakeholders to support the answer are:

How many teams? Is it a 8-12 team composition intending to keep costs minimal or a 12-16 team comp that starts ambitious but fully intends to let unsuccessful participants die?

What recruitment restrictions are placed on the teams? What number of foreign players is allowed and what counts as a foreigner? Will there be different categories of foreign player for Kiwis or PIs, or "backpacker/Gap year" Europeans as opposed to genuine international recruits?

Will the Drua be invited/required? If they are and manage to retain much of their core, what's to stop them running away with the competition most years?

Will there be a ACT/VIC/WA presence? If so, can it be a rep/franchise side rather than a club side? Can the rep side retain the Brumbies/Rebels/Force branding or should they be obligated to change to ensure that there is no expectation of "continuity"?

Is retaining Bond as a Gold Coast presence and the Wildfires as a Newcastle presence important to ensure that the competition is not simply "Inner Sydney & Brisbane + Ex Pro sides" even if they're not necessarily the most commercially viable options?

And mergers allowed? Joint Ventures? If so, how big is too big? If whatever reason it's decided by the four Northern SS Clubs that the Rays are the way to go, can that be ok, from a junior access, early senior access, club affiliation POV etc.

Are geographically disparate alignments allowed, both within cities (e.g. if whatever reason Warringah got left out in the cold by a Norths/Manly/Gordon venture, could they align with a Wests/Students bid?) and with external teams for junior development and reserves purposes (e.g. the Victorian successor side remains aligned with Wests in Brisbane? )

Are successful clubs required to take on "new branding" to formally separate themselves from the community arm and/or reflect the nature of any joint venture or is the existing branding strong enough that it's needs to be retained even at the expense of a partner. If for example, Randwick-Easts were to participate as a joint venture in the new comp, (as they seemingly tried to do before being assigned to NSW Country) are the required to play as Randwick? Or Randwick-Easts? Or the Randwick Beasts? Or the "Bondi Bandits"?

Are "promoted" clubs or senior partners in joint ventures allowed to continue to participate under the same name in their City/State comps? Do they need to formally partner with a Suburban club to do so? Or do they need new formal names even if it's just as simple as "Randwick DRUFC Amateurs"?

Dozens of questions and I'm sure there are a million more.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

Anyone thinking an ARC type comp plus with the pacific nations + japan? Would be a decent commercial product as well?

 

[qwerty51]

Anyone thinking an ARC type comp plus with the pacific nations + japan? Would be a decent commercial product as well?

IF we dilute the comp and add in Drua, we probably need to handicap them somehow, they will destroy teams in Fiji.

 

[RugbyReg]

But if this is a new NRC, under Rugby, we don't need Drua in both. Let's get a Tongan team in (paid for by World Rugby of course)

 

[shaquille_oatmeal]

I really feel that if we want to make the NRC more prominent as a competition some form of promotion/relegation should be implemented. Inspired by a lot of what I see in football and other sports major conferences here are some suggestions:

- Implement some form of relegation/promotion: The beauty of some leagues is the way in which any team can rise up and make it to the top, and if we were to rebrand this league as such I'm sure we'll see more engagement with its events.

- Geographically Local Teams: People often feel an affinity to their local team, and I'm not sure about others but I find many teams to be too general. Rather, how can we target communities to have some patriotic passion towards their team like in Football or NRL, I believe this'll lead to greater community engagement in the competition.

- Stronger Media Presence: I find that the NRC is tucked away, but we can really push for it to have a wider presence beyond the uncanny valley of professional and amateur leagues. Many interacting with rugby at a super rugby level or even club level aren't aware of its existence, pushing it in combination with the above points will surely lead to more interaction.

I'm very open to feedback on these as I'd love too see the NRC not just stay but improve upon itself, and I feel it has the potential to be that locally supported and yet nationally present competition it could very well be.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

True, seeing how they go this RWC they might be playing rugby championship soon.

IF we dilute the comp and add in Drua, we probably need to handicap them somehow, they will destroy teams in Fiji

 

[Highlander35]

Here is my lazy and underinformed attempt at a 12 team comp if the point of an ARC/NRC/National Comp is to be entirely domestic. Where \w is used it indicates a junior partner rather than a genuine combined team.

Canberra Vikings (ACTRU {exc Penrith} \w SIRU)
Melbourne Axemen (VRU \w Wests)
Perth Spirit (WARU)
North Brisbane (Norths, GPS, Brothers)
South Brisbane (UQ, Souths, Easts, Sunnybank)
Gold Coast (Bond \w QCRU)
Manly (Manly \w Warringah)
North Shore (Norths \w Gordon)
Sydney (Sydney Uni/West Harbour/Southern Districts)
Randwick (Randwick \w Easts)
West Sydney (Eastwood/Parramatta/Penrith)
Newcastle Wildfires (NSWCRU)

 

[liquor box]

One of the QLD teams has to be called the Mud Crabs.

I think a Brisbane team should be the plovers, it would be a historical link to plovers attacking players during a game at Ballymore. I think it was a final?

 

[Joe King]

The main goals for a 3rd tier are usually taken to be:
1. Provide an extra step for aspiring club players towards Super Rugby.
2. Increase the amount of higher level games per year for non-test Super Rugby players.
3. Affordable.
4. Engaging for the fans.

When we aim for goal 4 as an equal highest priority, we end up suggesting select clubs become the 3rd tier, which is the worst option for achieving goals 1 and 2.

Club rugby already has its place, and we can’t rely on the 3rd tier to get people excited about rugby. It’s a *3rd* tier!

This is why I think goals 1, 2 and 3 need to take priority. Achieving goal 4 is not as high a priority, though we want to work towards it as best we can as long as it doesn’t undermine prioritising goals 1, 2 and 3.

But I do want to add another goal as a high priority for a 3rd tier, which I believe is currently imperative. And that is to make the Super Rugby teams stronger and more competitive than their NZ counterparts.

This extra goal assumes Australian Rugby is locked into SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) until at least 2031, which I believe is the case. After 2031 we might go domestic, but until then…

If we can make the Super Rugby teams at least as strong and as competitive as the NZ teams overall, then this will achieve the following:

1. The Wallabies would be far more competitive than they are now, and we would expect them to win more often. This is obvious because they will have better players to select from, and more of them. Player development accelerates in a more competitive team environment. Imagine if the Wallabies were ranked 1-3 in the world heading into the WC and other competitions!
2. SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) will be a much more engaging competition. The really big problem for SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) in the Australian market is the fact that our teams mostly lose to NZ teams. But imagine if there were three Australian teams in the top five on the ladder, or if one or two Australian teams made the grand final on a regular basis! If Australian fans expected their team to win against NZ teams more often, Australian fans would be tuning in and follow with interest.
3. With Wallabies and SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) engaging the fans, revenue starts flowing in. Even less need to rely on 3rd tier to achieve goal 4 above.

In trying to achieve this, some models will be better than others.

My preference is for Super Rugby AU minus test players (and possibly Australia A players for some of the comp). But even if the Super Rugby teams play under different names, or even if Waratahs and Reds are to split into two teams each, the key is for all the teams to be controlled and run by the Super Rugby teams themselves. The benefits of this include:

1. Players play under a single coaching structure for the whole year. This allows teams to better develop combinations and cohesion and game plans for SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) the following year.
2. As Brett Mackay keeps saying, this is the simplest and easiest model to implement. If the Waratahs for example, see this as a key way to make themselves a much stronger team for SRP (Super Rugby Pacific), it’s pretty hard for Sydney clubs to try and stand in the way of that. This model could be implemented tomorrow. It seems like most of the Super Rugby teams are ready to go and just looking for a comp to play in—hence the current tours and games being played by Super Rugby teams in the off season.
3. It’s the cheapest model to implement. Overhead costs are greatly reduced—no new kit needed, training facilities, coaches etc. all already in place.
4. To really build and develop aspiring club players, any third tier teams need to be more than just teams in a comp. They need to have a vested interest in developing aspiring club players. Therefore, they need to have easy access to club players throughout the year, and the ability to incentivise extra training and conditioning, etc. Only the Super Rugby teams can play this role.
5. It has the added bonus of being pretty engaging for a 3rd tier. Brand names are already known, there is an existing affection for Super Rugby AU, etc. Fans of Super Rugby teams will take an interest to see new faces up and coming because it is better connected to SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) teams, etc.

I would use the old Super Rugby AU format. Invite Fiji Dura to be a part (minus their test players). Play it from August-October. Home and away, double round robin, with top 3 finals over two weeks = 12 weeks. Every Super Rugby team is guaranteed 10 extra games to introduce new aspiring club players to the mix, and prepare for SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) the following year.

 

[RugbyReg]

BRavo - well said. Couldn't agree more with your justifications / objectives at the start.

I'd be very happy with this model - the old Ricoh Challenge type model. We had this back in 2006 in fact. The APC (Australian Provincial Championship). An example of the teams back then.

QLD:

15 Andrew Brown
14 Henari Veratau
13 Ben Tune
12 Lloyd Johansson
11 Caleb Brown
10 Peter Hynes
9 Dom Fuller
8 John Roe
7 David Croft
6 Mitch Chapman
5 Ed O'Donaghue
4 James Horwill
3 Herman Hunt
2 Stephen Moore
1 David Amosa

Reserves - Sean Hardman, Peter Loane, Cameron Treloar, Ben Mowen, Dave Campbell, BRett Gillespie, Brando Va'alu

WA:

15 Haig Sare
14 Digby Ioane
13 Josh GRaham
12 Junior Pelesasa
11 Brett Stapelton
10 Scott Daruda
9 Matt Henjak
8 Richard Brown
7 David Pocock
6 Josh Fuimaona
5 Luke Doherty
4 Pat O'Connor
3 Angus Scott
2 Brendan Cannon
1 Gareth Hardy

Reserves - AJ Whalley, Troy Takieari, Kiti Fuluna, Matt Hogdson, John McGrath, Vitori Buatava, James Stannard

ACT:

15 Julian Huxley
14 Tim Wright
13 Matt Carraro
12 Adam Ashley-Cooper
11 Francis Fainifo
10 Gene Fairbanks
9 Patrick Phibbs
8 Stephen Hoiles
7 Julian Salvi
6 Marty Wilson
5 Scott Flint
4 Al Campbell
3 Salesi Maafu
2 James McCormack
1 Nick Henderson

Reserves - Saia Fainga'a, John Ulugia, Chris Aho, Ben White, Nick Haydon, Tim Curran, Jason Iagaali

NSW:

15 PEter Hewat
14 Lloyd Jones
13 BEn Jacobs
12 Tom Carter
11 Nick Reilly
10 Daniel Halangahu
9 Josh Holmes
8 David Lyons
7 Beau Robinson
6 Dean Mumm
5 Will Caldwell
4 Ben Hand
3 Aaron Broughton-Rouse
2 Adam Freier
1 Matt Dunning

Reserves - Al Manning, Matt Skillecorn, Shawn Mackay, Tim Davidson, Dave Rimmer, Sam Harris, Morgan Turinui.

Considering this was 2006, there are some pretty key names there.

 

[RuggaLuva03]

With the player pool that NSW and QLD have, would having two NSW and QLD teams in a provincial championship be too much?

 

[Goosestep]

I really feel that if we want to make the NRC more prominent as a competition some form of promotion/relegation should be implemented. Inspired by a lot of what I see in football and other sports major conferences here are some suggestions:

- Implement some form of relegation/promotion: The beauty of some leagues is the way in which any team can rise up and make it to the top, and if we were to rebrand this league as such I'm sure we'll see more engagement with its events.

- Geographically Local Teams: People often feel an affinity to their local team, and I'm not sure about others but I find many teams to be too general. Rather, how can we target communities to have some patriotic passion towards their team like in Football or NRL, I believe this'll lead to greater community engagement in the competition.

- Stronger Media Presence: I find that the NRC is tucked away, but we can really push for it to have a wider presence beyond the uncanny valley of professional and amateur leagues. Many interacting with rugby at a super rugby level or even club level aren't aware of its existence, pushing it in combination with the above points will surely lead to more interaction.

I'm very open to feedback on these as I'd love too see the NRC not just stay but improve upon itself, and I feel it has the potential to be that locally supported and yet nationally present competition it could very well be.

Geography is everything.. lack of tribalism is one of MAJOR reasons why rugby isn’t as big as could be in Australia… for some reason this has never been addressed..

there’s a reason why Joeys and Riverview can fill out a NRL stadium and club rugby can’t … it’s a sense of belonging and culture, that isn’t matched in the professional code in this country.

 

[RuggaLuva03]

Could tribalism be fixed through, say, a club rugby premiership similar to the European Rugby Champions Cup? Take the best finishing teams from the Shute Shield, Hospital Cup, John Dent Cup, Dewar Shield and RugbyWA Premier Grade and have them play for a national title.

Alternatively, I was thinking of a representative competition where teams are selected based on geography rather than affiliation. There are enough premier clubs and unselected Super Rugby players to potentially fill teams for a short post-Super Rugby competition. Make use of a conference system and the outcome could be entertaining, but it's just fantasy

 

[RuggaLuva03]

Just an uninformed stab at teams based on geography and it's all fantasy. I understand some teams will appear unbalanced.

ACT I (Far South Coast* / Gungahlin / Uni-Norths / West)
ACT II (Canberra / Queanbeyan / Southern Inland* / Tuggeranong)

NSW North (Central Coast / Hunter & Newcastle/ Mid-North Coast / New England)

Sydney I (Eastern Suburbs / Illawarra* / Randwick / Southern Districts / Sydney University)
Sydney II (Gordon / Manly / Northern Suburbs / Warringah)
Sydney III (Eastwood / Penrith* / West Harbour / Western Sydney)

Brisbane I (Brothers / Central Queensland* / GPS / North Queensland* / Norths / UQLD / Sunshine Coast / Wests)
Brisbane II (Bond University / Darling Downs* / Easts / Far North Coast* / Gold Coast* / Souths / Sunnybank)

Melbourne I (Footscray / Melbourne / Melbourne University / Power House / Victorian Bush*)
Melbourne II (Box Hill / Endeavour Hills / Harlequins / Moorabbin / Victorian Bush*)

Perth I (Associates / Cottesloe / Nedlands / Palmyra / Southern Lions / UWA)
Perth II (Joondalup / Kalamunda / Perth Bayswater / Wanneroo / Wests Scarborough)

I'm not sure where Central West and Western Plains would fit in. They're in an odd spot between the ACT and Sydney, but could also link with NSW North just because it's country.

For South Australia, Tasmania and the Northern Territory, I couldn't quite settle on a geographic affiliation. A Barbarians team maybe?

I did think of NSW Country and QLD Country, but, again, couldn't settle. They would be a nice addition.

Then there's the Asia-Pacific. I sense that if this fantasy competition ever did go ahead, the Drua would be interested and maybe even Pasifika. Maybe have an Asia-Pacific team in QLD and/or NSW?

 

[Beer on the hill]

Do we genuinely think that RA will put a third tier in anytime soon?