Having no NRC is better how?

[WorkingClassRugger]

let's make it clear - its a national club comp but it aint no third tier. Top three QPR teams based on last year would be Wests, UQ and Brothers.

That means QLD Squad members, and non Wallabies, such as George Blake, Richie Aisata, Zane Nonggorr, Angus Blyth, Liam Wright, Spencer Jeans, Taj Anan etc would not get anymore rugby.

So it doesn't 'bridge the gap' at all. Doesn't raise the standard of the game a bit.

Which is why both Sydney and Brisbanecwould require a 4th squad designed to capture all the best talent not invloved in those clubs. Could even be Reds/Tahs administered. I think if we're going to look at the NRC again and I think we absolutely should and to overcome most notably resistence from the Sydney clubs a hybrid model may be needed.

 

[Rebel man]

that was one of the hidden objectives. to get the melbourne (Dewar Cup) some support with higher class players and potentially more local interest - supporters.
I keep hearing that Rugby needs to expand its wings.
In my mind we need to have more high quality vehicles for all the talented players to fit into instead of pissing off overseas.
Brisbane and Sydney schools alone release thousands of potential players each year but we lose many of them because of too few of places for them to land.

I think it will be a slow process as anyone with any ambition of higher honours left when covid hit. So the gap would be pretty big.

I would like to think that with the growing pathways in Vic that in the mid term we could build that back up

 

[Qldtragic]

Because the top two teams were Wests and UQ who played in the final, and UQ beat Brothers in the Prelim Final, so Brothers are the third team.

All your points are valid, but it is only a expanded club comp. It is not a higher level of competition. Good content for Stan? Absolutely. A chance for lessor known players to get some profile? Probably. A solution to bragging rights? Who cares. A legitimate 3rd tier between club and Super Rugby with enhanced player development outcomes. No way.

Unfortunately if people disagree with you in real life, they are not just being a negative nancy. Often they are just being pragmatic, accurate or even correct on occasions.

dont have a problem with disagreement.

Do have a problem with not thinking outside the box and being proactive to improve our game.

Definition of insanity is to continue doing the same and expecting a different result. Therefore if what we have done and tried for last 20 years has got us to a shit situation (widely acknowledged - no money - lacking players etc etc) then we have to change it up. or we will stay a poor cousin to our competition and the wallabies will be a 6 -9 ranked team.

 

[Qldtragic]

Which is why both Sydney and Brisbanecwould require a 4th squad designed to capture all the best talent not invloved in those clubs. Could even be Reds/Tahs administered. I think if we're going to look at the NRC again and I think we absolutely should and to overcome most notably resistence from the Sydney clubs a hybrid model may be needed.

third tier is for us to identify and develop up and coming talent in preference to flogging the same limited group from Super teams.

If we end up watching the reds/tahs/rebs/force/brums in different colour jerseys what do we achieve?

 

[Qldtragic]

I think it will be a slow process as anyone with any ambition of higher honours left when covid hit. So the gap would be pretty big.

I would like to think that with the growing pathways in Vic that in the mid term we could build that back up

I think we should look at the third tier, in whatever form it takes, as a 5 - 8 year program that will start small and grow.

By using a promotion / relegation model of existing clubs we would be able to tap into a core base of support rather than start from scratch with new outfits. Plus it taps into the tribal cultures already exisiting ie Bris v Syd, Syd v Melb.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

third tier is for us to identify and develop up and coming talent in preference to flogging the same limited group from Super teams.

If we end up watching the reds/tahs/rebs/force/brums in different colour jerseys what do we achieve?

The most logical window for this is Sept-December. So I don't see many Wallabies participating. Which means with the mix of club and rep squad you're likely to see a reasonable mix of new and established players.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think we should look at the third tier, in whatever form it takes, as a 5 - 8 year program that will start small and grow.

By using a promotion / relegation model of existing clubs we would be able to tap into a core base of support rather than start from scratch with new outfits. Plus it taps into the tribal cultures already exisiting ie Bris v Syd, Syd v Melb.

A purely club based model isn't the pathway forward as demonstrated by them not managing it previously. Far too much self interest. I mean answer me this. If Ice Hockey can organise a nationwide national league then why couldn't Rugby have managed the same at the club level as a far more established sport in this country? Self interest is why.

A hybrid model that allows for the Top 3 from Syd and Brisbane to qualify and potentially the winner of the JiD in Canberra alongside rep squads out of Sydney, Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne and Perth seems like a solid middle ground between seeking out elite pathways and inclusion.

 

[Rebel man]

I think we should look at the third tier, in whatever form it takes, as a 5 - 8 year program that will start small and grow.

By using a promotion / relegation model of existing clubs we would be able to tap into a core base of support rather than start from scratch with new outfits. Plus it taps into the tribal cultures already exisiting ie Bris v Syd, Syd v Melb.

Would need some funding to help out in Melbourne. Most clubs here couldn’t afford the airfares

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Would need some funding to help out in Melbourne. Most clubs here couldn’t afford the airfares

Those clubs need to focus on participation as opposed to competing in some kind of multi tier national competition. If we were to look at a club based solution then I'd suggest something akin to what I suggested but done slightly differently with essentially the Shute Shield and Hospital Cup merging while adding rep squads from Melbourne, Canberra (potentially the likes of the Vikings and a rep squad) and Perth.

But even that would require some fairly huge shifts in terms of thinking and funding to happen.

 

[fatprop]

Would need some funding to help out in Melbourne. Most clubs here couldn’t afford the airfares

Neither could the Sydney clubs

 

[Qldtragic]

Neither could the Sydney clubs

My proposal is that RA would do the heavy lifting with funding. Say a $1.5 m injection. would mean the need to find a sponsor ship package or god forbid we took some money out of the professional paypackets.
if every Super Rugby and Wallaby contracted player gave back a little each (5 to 10 %) I reckon it would be covered.

 

[fatprop]

My proposal is that Rugby Australia would do the heavy lifting with funding. Say a $1.5 m injection. would mean the need to find a sponsor ship package or god forbid we took some money out of the professional paypackets.
if every Super Rugby and Wallaby contracted player gave back a little each (5 to 10 %) I reckon it would be covered.

I just don't think there is the cash with RA either

The last NRC was done on a shoestring and cost $$$$$, they even flew teams in the morning of games and out that night to save on accommodation

And Super Rugby contracted players are on shit wages as it is, give back 5%-10%? yeah, right, we tried to lower wages during covid and players took the option to leave

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

I've said this before on other threads but I just don't see the point in creating new teams and expecting it work. There isn't enough talented players that deserve to be in a 3rd tier if its consists of 8-10 teams. The NRC was asking guys to play repeatedly who had no interest but they needed to fill squads. Talent did come of it and I do think we need the 3rd tier but if it was me I would run a Super Rugby A comp along with the Super Rugby U20s

I don't know how many players are actually in the FT Super Rugby squads but say its 32 like the NRL. 23 are involved in the Super Rugby match day. That leaves 9 players (give or take a few for injury/suspension) lets say 5 are available. You then probably have 10 players that may be on development contracts/arrangements. We're at 15 players now and leaves 8 spots in a match day for those that earn an opportunity in their respective club competitions. Across 5 teams that is 40 non contracted players getting a chance every game day plus game time for the contracted members of the Super Rugby teams. It also allows for 15+ coaches to be exposed to a higher level.

This has not counted anything for an U20s Comp.

Why involve the bullshit that comes from politics in the Shute Shield and others over who works with who and trying to establish home grounds and engage fans when their is already a brand in the place that teams are being suggested. Use the facilities, brand and pathways already in place to make them more effective. Don't piss the money up the wall (thanks Pulver) creating something that I don't think most Rugby fans even want.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I've said this before on other threads but I just don't see the point in creating new teams and expecting it work. There isn't enough talented players that deserve to be in a 3rd tier if its consists of 8-10 teams. The NRC was asking guys to play repeatedly who had no interest but they needed to fill squads. Talent did come of it and I do think we need the 3rd tier but if it was me I would run a Super Rugby A comp along with the Super Rugby U20s

I don't know how many players are actually in the FT Super Rugby squads but say its 32 like the NRL. 23 are involved in the Super Rugby match day. That leaves 9 players (give or take a few for injury/suspension) lets say 5 are available. You then probably have 10 players that may be on development contracts/arrangements. We're at 15 players now and leaves 8 spots in a match day for those that earn an opportunity in their respective club competitions. Across 5 teams that is 40 non contracted players getting a chance every game day plus game time for the contracted members of the Super Rugby teams. It also allows for 15+ coaches to be exposed to a higher level.

This has not counted anything for an U20s Comp.

Why involve the bullshit that comes from politics in the Shute Shield and others over who works with who and trying to establish home grounds and engage fans when their is already a brand in the place that teams are being suggested. Use the facilities, brand and pathways already in place to make them more effective. Don't piss the money up the wall (thanks Pulver) creating something that I don't think most Rugby fans even want.

I'm not against Super Rugby A comps but if we're sticking with SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) then I would like to SRP (Super Rugby Pacific) across the board including A, U20s and Womens. Outside of the A comp you wouldn't necessarily have to run the U20s and Womens along the same schedule to start (though I'd prefer it) instead running something similar to the original S12 single round.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

From an Aus & NZ point of view I'd like an U20s to be run leading into the U20s WC. Finish it up 3 weeks before the start.

This may also allow a number of these players to be involved in Super Rugby A games and as many Club games as possible.

Imagine a time where our young players could have at least 40-50 games by the time there 21 between Club, U20s, A level. Of course, there will be outliers that debut higher earlier but the benefit to our Super Rugby teams would be huge.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Little bit left field for here and I still stand by my opinion that we use the current teams and make it an A level comp, but it could be a good case study of how a lower tier national comp runs that will need to be done as efficiently as possible to be viable.

Football Aus ‘taken by surprise’ as Sharks in shock joint venture bid to join second division

Football Aus ‘taken by surprise’ as Sharks in shock joint venture bid to join second division

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[PhilClinton]

From an Aus & NZ point of view I'd like an U20s to be run leading into the U20s WC. Finish it up 3 weeks before the start.

This may also allow a number of these players to be involved in Super Rugby A games and as many Club games as possible.

Imagine a time where our young players could have at least 40-50 games by the time there 21 between Club, U20s, A level. Of course, there will be outliers that debut higher earlier but the benefit to our Super Rugby teams would be huge.

Don't forget the NRL tried their hand at a purely 20s competition, fully linked to their club sides, and it ended up crumbling.

There are a lot of costs involved with running a full-time 20s competition and logistics that I think we forget. For example these are young men vying for a future in a game with limited spots and opportunity. The reality is a large contingent of them won't crack a senior professional squad and end up needing other employment, that means ensuring all the participants are either enrolled in university, working or studying a trade. Something which the NRL teams attempted to do and it didn't entirely work.

I know several of the blokes who played in the NRL U20 competition and have fallen on both sides of that fence, a couple who are still playing today for Super Rugby or NRL teams and a very large number who never made it. A lot of the blokes who never made it are now nearly 30 and well behind in terms of their careers, some really struggling with the fact they dedicated 3 years of their lives to a competition, were very handy players, but there just wasn't room for them.

I understand letting players/people make their own decisions in life but you've got to be delicate when bringing in full-time junior competitions because the reality is many of them won't progress.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Another problem with the NRL U20s was the sheer amount of teams meant the stars are was really poor as the real guns go straight into top 30s. Almost everyone out of Rep league age group teams ended up a Toyota Cup or Holden Cup player with very few flowing onto have NRL Careers. Rugby would only have 5 teams which keeps it somewhat harder to make.

 

[PhilClinton]

Another problem with the NRL U20s was the sheer amount of teams meant the stars are was really poor as the real guns go straight into top 30s. Almost everyone out of Rep league age group teams ended up a Toyota Cup or Holden Cup player with very few flowing onto have NRL Careers. Rugby would only have 5 teams which keeps it somewhat harder to make.

Yep agree the comp was almost too robust. I should say I wasn't trying to totally shit on your concept either, there are definitely some advantages that the rugby version would have over the NRL.

For example I can see numerous opportunities in the Japan competition for blokes who aren't able to crack the full-time Super Rugby squads. I guess that is probably contingent on how the Japanese run their comp over the next few years though in terms of imports.

I guess my main concern is that whenever you implement an age-based competition, there will always be questions asked about, 'what now?' for the players who play three years in it and then don't make a full-time team. They either have to give the game up, go back to playing amateur or look overseas. Whereas if the 'third tier' competition is open grade, you don't run into that issue.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

That’s a good point. I guess I was purely looking at it from a U20s RWC downwards view but they definitely benefit from playing open age more than purely in their bracket.

There is a small recruitment aspect it can benefit as you can put a young kid from QLD straight into a Reds uniform instead of saying go play club and we’ll see how you go. There was a lot of appeal of the NRL 20s was these boys getting the gear and into the facilities