France v Australia, Saturday 19 November

[Lindommer]

Is Coleman out? Does Cheik start Cooper and Genia? I'd imagine the bench will revert to 5/3 for this match.

 

[Dalai Ninja]

I'd be starting Phipps and Foley.

Cooper and Genia, at their best, are our best pairing, but if we're going to play our best team, then it's certainly Phipps and Foley right now. That said, Cooper and Genia haven't had their chance yet this tour. Maybe this is the game to give them that opportunity.

At least its not a grand slam game.

 

[Pfitzy]

Coleman out. Medial strain minimum. On crutches isn't a good sign.

Bringing Genia straight back was maybea mistake. Best of us this year BUT French club rugby is a gear down. Maybe three.

Don't change winning halves' combinations, is the lesson. So do we stick to that and keep Genia with Foley?

To be perfectly honest, I don't care if we win this game.

I would happily ship 40 points to France - only if they play crazy, irresistible, French rugby - if it means we are better prepared for Ireland and England.

1 Sio
2 Moore
3 Kepu
4 Douglas
5 Skelton
6 Fardy
7 Pocock
8 Timani
9 Genia
10 Cooper
11 Naivalu
12 Hodge
13 TK
14 DHP
15 Folau

16 Latu
17 Robertson
18 AAA
19 Simmons
20 Mumm
21 Phipps
22 Foley
23 Koroibete

 

[Brumby Runner]

^^^^^^ I like your backrow Pfitzy, and hope we get to see it in operation next week.

I'm also not too concerned about whether this game is won or lost, so I'd take the opportunity to rest a couple more of the regular starters.

1. Despite my personal objection to Allan Ala'alatoa playing on the blind side, he has looked the real deal every time he's come on, so I'd start him and give Kepu a rest.

2. I also look to give Moore a rest with Latu to start and Ready to come in on the bench as replacement for Hanson.

3. On last night's form combined with all of his appearances at Super Rugby and NRC this year, I would not have Skelton in the side at all. Again bring Carter in to replace Coleman.

4. I'd then give Folau a rest and have DHP at 15 with Koroibete on the wing.

5. Speight on the bench.

6. Slipper on the bench for Robertson.

Godwin should also get time either to start at 12 to give Hodge a break or on the bench for Speight.

Apparently, McMahon is still carrying an injury and there is doubt about the fitness of Douglas. With the tour now half over (after the France game), the question needs to be asked why either of these and Skelton (who is just very poor) were selected to tour in the first place.

 

[Lindommer]

Robertson plays at THP for the Tahs (and rather well for a newbie) while Allan A'a'a'a wears 17 and covers LHP for the Brumbies. Yet the (supposedly) smarter coaches up the line play them on the other side of the scrum when they're wearing gold. Que? I'll admit I know fuck all about the dark arts of the front row, but I just don't get it.

Could one of the resident fatties throw some light on these selections. Over to you fatprop, Pfitzy, oztimmay and others.

 

[Micheal]

Onwards and upwards. The team for this game has to be chosen with the French Baa Baa's 23 in mind, as the Barbarians game is only four days after this. As such:

French Barbarians:

1. Tupou
2. Ready
3. Slipper
4. Carter
5. Skelton
6. Mumm
7. McMahon
8. Dempsey
9. Frisby
10. Quade
11. Taqele
12. Godwin
13. Perese
14. Koroibete
15. Morahan

16. Ryan
17. Latu
18. Robertson / Ala'alatoa
19. Douglas
20. Fardy
21. Phipps
22. Foley
23. Kellaway

France:

1. Kepu
2. Moore
3. Sio
4. Arnold
5. Simmons
6. Pocock
7. Hooper
8. Timani
9. Genia
10. Foley
11. DHP
12. Hodge
13. Kuridrani
14. Naivalu
15. Folau

16. Robertson
17. Latu
18. Ala'alatoa
19. Douglas
20. Fardy
21. Phipps
22. Cooper
23. Speight

 

[hammertimethere]

Surely this Wallaby team needs to have it's priorities as
- Win most matches possible
- Take grand slam if possible
- Player welfare/management
- Build depth
in that order. I do not necessarily buy the theory that it better prepares us for Ireland and England to rest all of our A team. Some tinkering if necessary is ok (to manage form, fatigue or injury issues), but in most areas we need to build more combination, confidence etc. and that only comes from time out there.

Losing Coleman sucks. Also note that Tupou isn't eligible to play French BaaBaa's

For France;
1 - Sio
2 - Moore
3 - Kepu
4 - Arnold
5 - Simmons
6 - Pocock
7 - Hooper
8 - Timani
9 - Genia
10 - Foley
11 - Naivalu
12 - Hodge
13 - TK
14 - DHP
15 - Folau

16 - Latu (ideally to play 30 mins plus)
17 - Robertson
18 - Ala'alatoa
19 - Mumm
20 - fardy
21 - Phipps
22- Cooper (also to ideally play more minutes)
23 - Speight

French BaaBaa's (4 days later and 2 days prior to Ireland)
1 - Slipper
2 - Ready
3 - Ala'alatoa
4 - Douglas
5 - Carter
6 - Dempsey
7 - McMahon
8 - Houston if available
9 - Frisby
10 - Cooper
11- Koroibete
12 - Godwin
13 - Perese
14 - Naiyaravoro
15 - Morahan

16 - Latu
17 - Ryan
18 - Robertson
19 - Skelton (still mad at hime though)
20 - Hooper (not to play unless necessary)
21 - Phipps
22 - Foley (Not to play unless necessary, would prefer to fly over Jono Lance)
23 - DHP (not to play unless necessary)

 

[PeterK]

For France;
1 - Sio
2 - Moore
3 - Kepu
4 - Arnold
5 - Simmons
6 - Fardy
7 - Pocock
8 - Timani
9 - Phipps
10 - Foley
11 - Naivalu
12 - Hodge
13 - TK
14 - Folau
15 - DHP

16 - Latu (gets 30 mins)
17 - Robertson
18 - Ala'alatoa (gets 30 mins)
19 - Douglas
20 - Hooper
21 - Genia
22 - Cooper (gets 30 mins)
23 - Speight

French BaaBaa's (4 days later and 2 days prior to Ireland)
1 - Slipper
2 - Ready
3 - Ala'alatoa
4 - Skelton
5 - Carter
6 - Mumm
7 - McMahon
8 - Dempsey
9 - Frisby
10 - Cooper
11- Koroibete
12 - Godwin
13 - Perese
14 - Naiyaravoro
15 - Morahan

16 - Latu
17 - Ryan
18 - Robertson
19 - ?
20 - Hooper (not to play unless necessary)
21 - Phipps
22 - Foley
23 - Speight

 

[Lindommer]

Can someone in the know please report on the fitness status of Hanson, Douglas and McMahon. Are they getting over their niggling injuries?

 

[Brumby Runner]

The test against France is in the test window, so is there any reason to think that Houston wouldn't be available if picked. I would also look at any option to give Moore, Hooper, Foley and Folau a rest as they've had a lot of game time this year. Under no circumstances would I think they should be considered for the Baa Baas game, and time on the bench against France would be valuable also.

Aren't Toby Smith, Stirzaker and Kellaway also over there? Surely they will play against the French Baa Baas.

So I'd be looking at:

France

Sio, Latu, Ala'alatoa, Douglas, Simmons, Fardy, Pocock, Timani, Genia, Cooper, Naivalu, Hodge, TK, Speight, DHP. Bench Moore, Robertson, Kepu, Arnold, Houston, Phipps, Foley, Folau.

French Baa Baas

Smith, Ready, Ryan, Carter, Douglas, Dempsey, McMahon, Houston, Stirzaker, Cooper, Morahan, Godwin, Perese, Naiyarovoro, Kellaway. Bench Hooker (?), Slipper, THP (?), Lock(?), Back row (?), No 9 (?), No 10 (?), Outside back (?).

All my queries are that I don't think any starters or bench players for Ireland should be in this game. They ought to be in Ireland getting acclimatised and training specifically for the test two days later.

Looks like an absolute shambles of a schedule to put the Baa Baas game in mid week without having a full squad available for it.

 

[PeterK]

I forgot about Strizaker, Smith and Kellaway

As few players as possible of the ones in the Ireland game should be in the baa baa's game.

 

[Micheal]

I forgot about them aswell. In that case:

1. Smith
2. Ready
3. Ryan
4. Carter
5. Skelton
6. Mumm / Fardy (one of them won't play France)
7. McMahon
8. Dempsey
9. Stirzacker
10. Cooper
11. TQN
12. Godwin
13. Perese
14. Koroibete
15. Morahan / Kellaway

^ No one in that team should be needed to start for France. Start them all and only use the bench if theres injuries / Ireland. Ideally we'd have Lance to play flyhalf, but perhaps Godwin could do it and Kellaway could play 12 (he's done so before at lower levels) to ensure Coopers ready for Ireland / France.

Its not even a bad team. Wouldn't mind seeing what they've got.

 

[Lindommer]

All my queries are that I don't think any starters or bench players for Ireland should be in this game. They ought to be in Ireland getting acclimatised and training specifically for the test two days later.

Looks like an absolute shambles of a schedule to put the Baa Baas game in mid week without having a full squad available for it.

Totally agree with your sentiments for the Irish 23, BR. If the Australians in the Barbarians squad are tacked on to the main Wallabies squad (it'd seem they're going to be, Mr Doug's intimated to us Carter's been called up for the French BaaBaas fixture), there's almost a full squad for that match. The one player whom I would fly over from Oz is Jono Lance, we desperately need to develop depth at five-eight and Jono's recent form warrants a run in gold, even if it is with the dirt-tracker team.

If Coleman's injured maybe Sam can stay with the Wallabies and Skelton can bugger off to Saracens.

 

[hammertimethere]

I too forgot about Kellaway, Smith and Stirzaker. Solves a lot of problems because they can wear 15, 3 and 21 vs the French BaaBaa's meaning most of our A team can be out of the 23.

I also changed my mind and think if Hooper is to have his load managed then this is the week to do it. On the bench for France (Pocock and Fardy to start) AND French BaaBaa's. Should be fresh enough for Ireland.

 

[KOB1987]

As this game doesn't form part of the grand slam and it's the middle game of the tour, I wonder if Cheika will use it to rest some key players and give some of the other guys a run. Not suggesting the B team by any means, maybe just playing around with the 23 such that the 8 blokes on the bench start. So with Coleman out and Skelton likely to be used to hold tackling bags for the rest of the tour, bring Fardy and Naivalu in for a 5:3 split. SO we go with something like this:

1. Alan
2. Latu
3. Robertson
4. Mumm
5. Simmons
6. Fardy
7. Pocock - C
8. Timani
9. Phipps
10. Cooper
11. Naivalu
12. Hodge
13. TK
14. DHP
15. Folau

16. Moore
17. Sio
18. Kepu
19. Arnold
20. Hooper
21. Genia
22. Foley
23. Speight

 

[KOB1987]

Could one of the resident fatties throw some light on these selections. Over to you fatprop, Pfitzy, oztimmay and others.

I'm not a resident fattie, I spent all my years playing 6, 7 or 8, and occasionally in the row, but from my experience, and we've had this discussion before, this is the lay of the land about the props:

Generally speaking, props are ambidextrous. However, usually but not always, the LHP is the technician and the THP is the big immovable fucker. But a technically proficient big fucker can play LHP, and similarly a LHP that is a big fucker can easily go to to the other side. Most of them have a preference but most of them can also play both sides.

 

[Pfitzy]

OK, here's the thing: front rows, like a lot of rugby, is about balance.

Traditionally you'd have a block of concrete at THP to protect your own ball, while the tricksier hobbit plays LHP and attacks the opposition. But that isn't always the case.

You can have a technician who plays THP, because he needs to understand what manner of attack he's under from the opposing LHP and hooker.

You can have a technician at LHP so that he can employ tricks to disrupt the opposition BUT he is also the Lord Protector of the ball on your own feed, as he is where the ball enters the whole shemozzle.

Its nice to have a bit of height in the front row because it helps with lineout lifting BUT if they're lazy (Paddy Ryan) and don't bend their levers enough, their balance at scrum time can be a liability.

Mostly though, like a lot of rugby, you pick the bloke in the position he's most suited to. And Robertson is - as I've said before - one of the best exponents of THP we've produced in years. And should stay on there, because its a fucking hard position to fill in Australia where every kid wants to be a bloody back!

*ugh* just vomited in my mouth a little. . .

According to the official stats, Robertson is only a couple of cm shorter than AAA which I find hard to believe. AAA apparently outweighs him by 10-15kg which may be true; he's a big boy.

Both can apparently play both sides of the scrum, but in Test rugby I just really don't think there is a place for that, when you can have two props on the bench. For their own development, I suggest they pick a side of the scrum and go with it.

Both good prospects, and could fight it out for the THP spot for years. I just think we're better to develop both of them there in order to shore up our front row stocks; a place we've never lacked for hookers or LHPs, but have at times been sorely found out at THP.

Generally speaking, props are ambidextrous. However, usually but not always, the LHP is the technician and the THP is the big immovable fucker. But a technically proficient big fucker can play LHP, and similarly a LHP that is a big fucker can easily go to to the other side. Most of them have a preference but most of them can also play both sides.

The brand of insanity required to put half a ton on your neck and want to go back for more will serve you well in either position.

BUT I've met guys who were excellent THPs and could never get the hang of the left side of the scrum, where they have a free shoulder. I've met LHPs converted to THPs (and been one) who hate being enclosed, and having the whole fucking world dance on their spine.

It largely comes down to the individual, and at Test level I'd be looking to pick n stick, as suggested above.

For the record: hookers are fucking absolutely insane. Straight up crazy.

 

[KOB1987]

Good spiel Pfitzy. I used to play against Fletcher Dyson at club level, and with him at rep level (this is way back in UNE days). He wasn't that big, bulked up considerably once he got to the big time admittedly but still wasn't huge, but was that good a technician that he could play THP at test level.

On another note I was randomly seated next to Bill Young on my flight back from the Melbourne Cup the other day = big fucker. He'd be 6'3" and 120kg I reckon, it's actually interesting that he ended up in the front row, with that height and build he could have been equally as imposing as a 6/8.

 

[Lindommer]

IIRC Bill played in the second row as a schoolboy.

 

[KOB1987]

IIRC Bill played in the second row as a schoolboy.

I did wonder what he played in his earlier years and that certainly doesn't surprise me. It does show though that if you have the right build one can successfully make the transition to the front row at the highest level even if it's left quite late. Dick Harry is another that comes to mind, I think he was a flanker for schoolboys? So shifting from one side of the scrum to the other is also doable at the elite level.

Anyway, digressing.

Wallabies by 15.