Foreign recruitment

[Inside Shoulder]

Does anyone actually think that Harris would be playing for the All Blacks atm had he not been forced to look for an opportunity in aus? I certainly don't. He'd be way down the pecking order. I bet you Hansen wouldn't use him if he had him available tomorrow. It's akin to a child not wanting to play with a toy, until another child picks it up. It's petty.

I think you are very like correct.
This is one of the cruelties of sport.
By being given a chance in this country Harris has shown that he has the temperament for the big time - that is a huge issue but in order to find out whether a player has that innate quality you have to see him play at that level. Because Harris is not the most physically gifted player it is highly unlikely he would have got the chance to show that he has the temperament for the big time.
Temperament is badly underrated in Australian rugby right at the moment.

 

[Lee Grant]

We talk about the constraint about changing countries every year.

A few years back I posted that if a Tier 1 test player was wanted by a Tier 2 nation he should be allowed to play for the Tier 2 team provided that:
- he was otherwise eligible, and..
- had the approval from the union of the test team he had represented

This dispensation was to benefit the Tier 2 nations only. A Tier 2 guy would never be allowed to switch to a Tier 1 team; nor could Tier 1 players be released to another Tier 1 team.

Also, players could make only one switch in a career.

There would be a few wrinkles in that but nothing that a sit down couldn't fix.
.

 

[TOCC]

The Tier 1/Tier 2 concept is the only sensible approach to the issue i feel, with a couple of extra clauses..

1) The player hasn't represented the Tier 1 country for a specified time farm(18months perhaps), this would be to minimise players jumping ship just prior to the RWC's if they aren't selected in their first country of choice world cup squad....

2) The player can only change to the Tier 2 nation if he qualifies through family or from been born there(residency qualifying period wont be accepted), specifically this is directed at Japan but may be applicable to more countries in the future.....

 

[Antony]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10843299

This article is on point. A XV of kiwis currently plying (or soon to be plying) their trade in other national sides.

Please ignore the massively trolling inclusion of Digby Ioane. No New Zealander genuinely thinks that.

The most frustrating examples for me are Tommy Waldrom, Michael Paterson, Mike Bent and Toby Lynn. Having provincial depth in the forwards is so important for the forging of young players, and shifts like this lessen the frequency of those young-gun v gnarly-old-bastard match ups.

I concede it's usually just club recruitment, but it still gets my goat a wee bit.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I dont see why you find it frustrating Antony - but I accept that you do.
Waldrom was, as the article says, a bit of a cult hero: having been there for about 3 weeks several years ago I can see why. But he doesn't "look" like an AB and he never would have been picked - he wasnt even guaranteed a start in s 15.
Spreading the NZ talent is good for the game generally and these guys can't be expected to forego money AND (perhaps more importantly) fantastic life experiences in order to help develop younger players.
The more NZers play in other the places the more the NZ philosophy of the game will spread and the better for rugby.
Perhaps Waldrom et al should be lauded as missionaries!

 

[Antony]

I dont see why you find it frustrating Antony - but I accept that you do.
Waldrom was, as the article says, a bit of a cult hero: having been there for about 3 weeks several years ago I can see why. But he doesn't "look" like an AB and he never would have been picked - he wasnt even guaranteed a start in s 15.
Spreading the NZ talent is good for the game generally and these guys can't be expected to forego money AND (perhaps more importantly) fantastic life experiences in order to help develop younger players.
The more NZers play in other the places the more the NZ philosophy of the game will spread and the better for rugby.
Perhaps Waldrom et al should be lauded as missionaries!

I understand what you mean IS, and I agree. Nothing that I say is intended to accuse any party of wrong-doing, either players for seizing opportunities or clubs and countries for seeking out talent. I think I generally have a pretty open mind about that stuff.

However, I'm fairly apprehensive about the future of NZ rugby. If our 3rd tier becomes packed with youngsters due to our inability to hold on to those sub-test veterans (due to lack of money or opportunities) then we could lose our greatest advantage. The Sydney grade cricket comp is a good example of that happening. They lost the veterans, and that first class cricketer production line stalled.

I think this issue (of kiwis playing for other countries) is just this week's manifestation of my anxieties. I'll quit harping on it though, I've probably given it enough air on these boards over the past few months.

And I can never stay mad at Waldrom. What an everyman's hero.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Antony from what I know of grade cricket (very little) I think you are onto something.
I think cricket is different here because even the limited overs forms of the game take a long time to play and kids have so many options that they choose not to spend a minimum of 4 hours when they could be on the x box.
I have complete faith in NZ rugby - but I'm not seeing it every day (unfortunately).

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The comparison to grade and state cricket is very apt. I'm fairly plugged into it here in Perth through some mates and the older blokes are disappearing from the game much sooner for a variety of reasons. Most first grade teams have an average age of about 21. A lot of grade teams in rugby are the same around the country now too.

The production line has definitely stalled. Gone are the days when young fellas would fight their way into grade teams (in both rugby and cricket) and then upwards from there. I lament that, because I think it's one of the best ways for guys to be battle hardened when they make the step up to rep teams.

 

[Antony]

The comparison to grade and state cricket is very apt. I'm fairly plugged into it here in Perth through some mates and the older blokes are disappearing from the game much sooner for a variety of reasons. Most first grade teams have an average age of about 21. A lot of grade teams in rugby are the same around the country now too.

The production line has definitely stalled. Gone are the days when young fellas would fight their way into grade teams (in both rugby and cricket) and then upwards from there. I lament that, because I think it's one of the best ways for guys to be battle hardened when they make the step up to rep teams.

The big issue with grade cricket is youth quotas. It's the dumbest thing an Australian sports body has ever done. They deliberately sought the same outcome that is being forced upon New Zealand rugby by fate and lack of resource.

Talented youngsters need to get belted by less talented old heads until they realise there's more to success than good co-ordination. Without the old heads you have the likes of Phil Hughes getting promoted to incompetence, because they only had to score runs against grade attacks comprised of 23 year olds, and then again against first class attacks comprised of the SAME 23 year olds. And then he gets destroyed by a hard-nut journeyman like Chris Martin, caught at first slip four innings in a row because he's never faced proper out-swing before.

This is why both Aus and NZ rugby need to hang on to as many of their non-international provincial and club veterans as possible.

 

[Antony]

Man I've gone off topic.

 

[TSR]

Maybe so, but I like your last post. I am not up to speed at all on the state of grade cricket or what is working and what isn't, but a lack of hard heads often creates a soft underbelly.

 

[spectator]

Why on earth would you move back to New Zealand? Must've been deported.

You can understand why they would be deported though. We don't want to saturate the labour market with forklift drivers.

That is just too funny.... (because I can't find a laughing my arse off icon).

 

[Lee Grant]

Man I've gone off topic.

That never disqualified anybody on Green and Gold - not really. Good stuff up there Ant.

 

[Dan54]

He was being a sore loser, it had nothing to do with Harris possibly playing for the ABs.

Hansen knew we won the game on our goal kicker so he took a jibe at our goal kicker, if the ABs won from the Carter drop goal we would've heard nothing about it.

I was under the impression that Hansen didn't even talk about Harris, though I do agree he was just being grumpy after the ASBs played badly. Though I didn't realise Wallabies won Gwerty. And if All Blacks has same injuries as Wallabies,he still wouldn't of been in them, so it no issue, he never was going to make ABs, so good on him.
Actually someone asked if any player had been recruited to Aus, I understood Rathbone had been, but again, good on him,it was his choice and I don't think anyone holds that against him.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Actually someone asked if any player had been recruited to Aus, I understood Rathbone had been, but again, good on him,it was his choice and I don't think anyone holds that against him.

Absolutely. I had a North Harbor supporting mate say to me: "Make sure you guys look after Mike Harris, he deserved better than he got over here". I don't know too many Kiwi's who begrudge him playing over here in OZ.

 

[cyclopath]

I was under the impression that Hansen didn't even talk about Harris, though I do agree he was just being grumpy after the ASBs played badly. Though I didn't realise Wallabies won Gwerty. And if All Blacks has same injuries as Wallabies,he still wouldn't of been in them, so it no issue, he never was going to make ABs, so good on him.
Actually someone asked if any player had been recruited to Aus, I understood Rathbone had been, but again, good on him,it was his choice and I don't think anyone holds that against him.

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about that!

 

[matty_k]

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about that!

Agreed. You should see the Wallabies Facebook page.

 

[Lindommer]

Actually someone asked if any player had been recruited to Aus, I understood Rathbone had been.....

Aussie Clyde has an Aussie granny, like many other good rugby players.

 

[Bowside]

I have a massive problem with the signing of overseas journeymen like Hayward and Ebersohn.

I don't mind marquee signings (like braid or delve), and I don't mind when teams sign a player like mike harris who is young, promising and aus eligible - but signing guys in their mid-20 who have failed to crack it at super rugby level in the past just seems like a waste to me. Would rather they poached young league players or spent the money on Aussies playing abroad instead of signing overseas journeymen who have proven time and time again that they don't really add anything more than the local players.

 

[ChargerWA]

I think the idea for an unwanted but previously capped international being able to move to another nation has merit and deserves serious consideration by the IRB to help grow the tier 2 nations.

The mechanism could be very simple. Something as simple as meeting two conditions.

1. The player hasn't been included in a national squad for 2 years
2. The player was born in the country he intends to play for.

The conditions above would also meet Lee Grant's idea that a player can only move once which I also agree with.

Think of Sitaleki Timani. After his ignominious start to test rugby, there were plenty of people on here hoping that he wasn't going to be a one cap Wallaby and forever lost to Tonga if he was never selected again. Obviously his test career is currently looking better than most people ever thought it would, but it would be wise to have a mechanism that would protect the young player if things didn't work out or allowed an older player the oppourtunity to go back to their home nation at the end of their career.