Final assignment: Iere

[rustycruiser]

Sexton over ROG is the surprise. You knew it was a possibility, but I always thought to be safe Declan would go with ROG one last time. Wallace over D'Arcy is also weaker to me. Granted I don't know the form/injury status of both at the moment, but I rate D'Arcy as the better player recently. No real ball hawk in the back three, Brussow might be the man to make a difference. Presuming the other Bok loosies decide to join a ruck this game, rather than cede possession because they are out on the wing (You listening, Kankowski!).

Still, a pretty good Irish team.

 

[Thomond78]

D'Arcy has been on poorish form, largely a bosh merchant of late. A very good bosh merchant, but a bosh merchant. Against Brussow, you don't want someone taking it into contact when distributing it will work so much better.

In other news, Morne Steyn is apparently surprised that it's wet and windy in Ireland in late November and that it might mean more kicking. I never thought I'd feel some sympathy for Blade Nzimande, but if that's the material he has to work with, well... :

 

[Hugonaut]

Don't worry. The pain fades. I find punching the living shit out of a Jamie Heaslip doll - "It scores tries! It can actually pass out of contact! It has pace! It's a lineout option! It doesn't give away stupid penalties! It can stay uninjured for 20 minutes! It's actually a number 8, not a back-up blindside! It's an IRB World Player of the Year Nominee! It started and finished all three tests for the Lions!" - does wonders...

Fixed that for you Thomo.

 

[Thomond78]

Don't worry. The pain fades. I find punching the living shit out of a Jamie Heaslip doll - "It scores tries! It can actually pass out of contact! It has pace! It's a lineout option! It doesn't give away stupid penalties! It can stay uninjured for 20 minutes! It's actually a number 8, not a back-up blindside! It's an IRB World Player of the Year Nominee! It started and finished all three tests for the Lions!" - does wonders...

Fixed that for you Thomo.

So is Tom Croft. And Matt Giteau. But Heinrich Brussow isn't. Better to be off that list than on it.

 

[Hugonaut]

So is Tom Croft. And Matt Giteau. But Heinrich Brussow isn't. Better to be off that list than on it.

I don't know about that – nice to be spoken of in the same breath as Brian O'Driscoll and Fourie du Preez.

Happy to see that Leamy has recovered from what looked to be a very nasty injury so quickly, but he's nowhere near being consistently at his best. Leamy at his best offers a totally different style of 8 to Heaslip and is a viable challenger ... Leamy on recent form? Not a chance.

 

[Thomond78]

So is Tom Croft. And Matt Giteau. But Heinrich Brussow isn't. Better to be off that list than on it.

I don't know about that – nice to be spoken of in the same breath as Brian O'Driscoll and Fourie du Preez.

Happy to see that Leamy has recovered from what looked to be a very nasty injury so quickly, but he's nowhere near being consistently at his best. Leamy at his best offers a totally different style of 8 to Heaslip and is a viable challenger ... Leamy on recent form? Not a chance.

On which basis you haven't actually watched much of them lately. Leamy has been definitely coming back to form, most notably when he was superb against Ulster, absolutely beating the lard out of Ferris. Heaslip has been a luxury we can't afford, because he's been show-boating around. His display against Fiji was simply disgraceful; that a supposed number 8 could contrive to go backwards off an advancing scrum, and then retreat further, is damning. He was exactly the same for the Lions in the first two tests. You can have Heaslip there if the 6 and 7 are on top form and working their tits off; Ferris isn't in top form, so we can't afford Heaslip, simple as.

Whereas, going in against a team whose main strength is manic breakdown work, a grappling grafter like Leamy is perfect, giving you an extra blindside in effect. That's why he was being played at 7 against Fiji; to see how he got on with Ferris. It was a straight-up match then between himself and Heaslip, and Leamy was doing a lot, lot more. Were he not injured, he'd be starting.

 

[Hugonaut]

On which basis you haven't actually watched much of them lately. Leamy has been definitely coming back to form, most notably when he was superb against Ulster, absolutely beating the lard out of Ferris. Heaslip has been a luxury we can't afford, because he's been show-boating around. His display against Fiji was simply disgraceful; that a supposed number 8 could contrive to go backwards off an advancing scrum, and then retreat further, is damning. He was exactly the same for the Lions in the first two tests. You can have Heaslip there if the 6 and 7 are on top form and working their tits off; Ferris isn't in top form, so we can't afford Heaslip, simple as.

Whereas, going in against a team whose main strength is manic breakdown work, a grappling grafter like Leamy is perfect, giving you an extra blindside in effect. That's why he was being played at 7 against Fiji; to see how he got on with Ferris. It was a straight-up match then between himself and Heaslip, and Leamy was doing a lot, lot more. Were he not injured, he'd be starting.

Thomo, I don't really agree with much of that, and I think that you're letting your Munster loyalties get the better of your better judgment in this instance. I've seen plenty of Leamy this season [I'm pretty sure I've seen all bar 80 minutes of rugby he has played], and aside from his match against Ulster – where he had a blinder, alright [although he was directly up against Chris Henry, not Stephen Ferris] – he isn't at top form. Even at top form, I'd probably have Heaslip over him, although that'd be a personal opinion.

As for the idea that he'd be starting at 8 if he hadn't injured himself, spare me the mind-read of Declan Kidney. If Kidney had wanted to see how he went at 8, he'd have started him at 8 against Fiji. He didn't start Jonny Sexton at 12 to see how he'd go at 10 against SA, nor did he start Keith Earls at 11 to see how he'd go at 13 or 15.

Far more likely was that he was starting him at 7 to see how he works as a 7 with the two other incumbent backrowers, Ferris @ 6 and Heaslip @ 8. Leamy is a known quantity as a 6 and an 8 from the bench, so it'd be my belief that Kidney wanted to see how he could deal with life as a 7 under the current set of laws [I'm pretty sure that Leamy started a match for EOS as a 7 very early in his career, but under different breakdown laws]. Kidney basically wanted to see how he'd do if he had to come off the bench for Wally, either through injury, or through Brussouw being too dominant at the breakdown.

This guff about Heaslip "being a luxury we can't afford" and "a disgrace" is all very emotive, but it's a strange luxury that affords you a Grand Slam, so spare me. You're obviously willing to overlook all the positives in Heaslip's play and concentrate on the negatives to make your point, but it's hardly a balanced one, and in my opinion, not a particularly coherent one. You'd play Leamy at 8, I [and Kidney] would play Heaslip. I don't feel the need to insult the lad from your province to make my point.

 

[Thomond78]

Hugonaut, for various reasons, I've more experience, including first-hand experience, of how DK does these things. It was between the two.

Secondly, Heaslip has been show-boating for a good while. He's a fine runner with the ball in broken field, with nice hands, but on Saturday, the same problems that have been apparent in his game in SA and elsewhere came to the fore. He consistently got smashed in contact, going backwards; as a result, he doesn't take it on to tie in the opposition back-row; his skills at the base are surprisingly bad for a specialist 8, as he only appears able to pick up by going back onto the ball; his control and protection of his scrum-half isn't brilliant; and at the breakdown, he's simply not there. There was one stage, in the first half where, after arriving late to a breakdown, he rested on top of it for about two to three seconds after the ball was gone, and then faded off to the bottom left on the screen, out to the wing. It was disgraceful.

The reason he pisses me off so much when he does this is nothing to do with provincial origin; as it happens, his background is with Shannon, both his father and uncle having played with them. It's to do with the fact that I had him down, since the 2004 U-21 RWC, as the successor to Tony Foley, a criminally under-used player but the finest 8 Ireland have produced in a long, long time. I'd prefer Heaslip working and Leamy at 6 as the optimum. The problem is, while Heaslip has the good points I've identified above, he simply isn't doing the core job of a number 8. Compare him with Foley, or Dayglo, or Palu, or Spies; he's not at the races by comparison, in terms of work-rate, general contribution to the breakdown and general utility.

Now, while it's fine having a lovely ball-player at 8, he's still a forward, and he's not doing his job as a forward. If anything, he's doing less of it, having, it would seem, started to believe the hype on this one. He's fine in a loose game, as the third Lions test showed; but in a tight, nuggety game, he needs two back-rows on top form to do the rest of the work. With Croft in the first two Lions games, we saw what happened there. Ferris is that sort of a player, but is only just coming back to fitness and form; Leamy is that sort of player, and is back in form. But the truth remains, he is being carried at the breakdown.

Sometimes, that's worth it. With Wallace and Ferris - and in the GS game, Wallace and Leamy - in the form they were in last season, it was. For Leinster last season, with Jennings/O'Brien and Elsom, it was worth it. At the moment, and especially against SA, I don't think it is worth it for Ireland. Brussow is better than Pocock, Smith as good as Elsom; and you saw what happened there. Simply, he's not justifying his place on the team at the moment.

 

[Hugonaut]

I agree with a few of your points Thomo, but I probably disagree with as many.

Firstly, Anthony Foley was hardly criminally under-used: 60+ caps for Ireland, most of them starting, some of them as captain. He was [and remains] an absolutely first-rate thinker and certainly one of the most intelligent players that I've seen, but he had very, very few physical gifts – no pace, not a lineout option, not even very aerobically fit. He had great tactical appreciation, great hands and a super kicking game for an 8, but destructive tackling? Nope. Turnover king? Nope. The ability to break tackles at the highest level, or necessitate a second tackler committing himself? Nope. If you could have transplanted Foley's brain into Victor Costello's body, you would have had a world beater. Then again, if you could have transplanted any half-decent rugby player's brain into Victor's body, you'd have had a very good No8.

As for Heaslip getting "consistently smashed in contact, going backwards", that's more a figment of your imagination. He went back off the base of a scrum once that I remember, and Qera [the Fijian openside], was pinged for having slipped his bind that time – we got a penalty off it, which Sexton knocked over. As for taking a kip at a breakdown and then dropping out on to the wing, I've no doubt he did – I'm not holding him up to be Richie McCaw here!

Taking him to task as 'disgraceful': a bit rich. Leamy gave away a penalty about 30m out in front of our sticks – is that disgraceful as well? Or merely stupid?

Every player has his weakpoints – for you, Heaslip doesn't get involved enough in the tackle area, is lazy and is more or less a lightweight. For me, Leamy gives away far too many penalties, makes poor decisions all over the park [in terms of lining up in the backline , going for offloads which he doesn't have the skillset to pull off, trying to catch balls over his head instead of just moving his feet to get in the right position, more discipline stuff, like not listening to the referee when instructed at the breakdown] and simply doesn't have the running game anymore that he once showed in '06.

Nor is he the second coming of Ant Foley in terms of cuteness around the pitch, leadership, handling, creating room for other players or positional sense: there's no way I'm buying that horse.

However, he's a hell of an aggressive, mean-spirited and physical No6 when at the top of his game. I don't think he's at the top of his game at the moment, but like you said, he's showing signs of coming back into form, and if he regains his previous forms, he'll be a serious challenge to both Ferris and Heaslip.

With regards to your first hand experience with DK: with respect, that's your take on it, but my own take on it seems more logical to me.

 

[Blue]

Sexton over ROG is the surprise. You knew it was a possibility, but I always thought to be safe Declan would go with ROG one last time. Wallace over D'Arcy is also weaker to me. Granted I don't know the form/injury status of both at the moment, but I rate D'Arcy as the better player recently. No real ball hawk in the back three, Brussow might be the man to make a difference. Presuming the other Bok loosies decide to join a ruck this game, rather than cede possession because they are out on the wing (You listening, Kankowski!).

Still, a pretty good Irish team.

If conditions are really heavy playing Kanko will make even less sense.

That's a big Irish back row. Definitely have to start Danie at 8 and Deysel on bench. Schalk likely to play it seems.


They'll definitely try to attack the 10/12 channel. Need Olivier and Burger to defend it.

 

[PaarlBok]

Nice to see some Iere joining in here.

Thomo: Look I know you are 90% Ier but still have 10% Boer, alle grappies op 'n stokkie nou, want you to put that Ierse Boer cock on the block and give us your real expectation for this one because you know the players from both teams probably the best. Oom Paarl always rated your stuff and myself worried like hell for this one. Myself from this side know its going be tough as hell for our boys, playing probably in the hottest enviroment regarding the Iere support in Croke Park but in the kakkest weather conditions and know our players will try to end on a high but I have that worried feeling the Iere will be hungry like wolves to beat us after all their heartbrake the had with the BIL tour. Mostly the hunger team take the honours but this is all head stuff.

Our forwards should probably try and dominate, scrums maybe? lineouts steal the odd ball but it all burns down to the breakdowns. I like that Ferrari guy , he was pretty awesome with ball in hand but I just know Schalkie and Brussouw havent yet click as a combination. They sure did some damage in the Hamilton test against the All Blacks and felt in the Hane test the moment Schalk left we sort of lose the energy stuff on the floor and Brussouw fight a brave war but against you boys I hope both will play for 80 minutes. Think that will be the secret for us, we'll need a 80 minute effort and if they pick AD , I'll just throw in the towel beforehand. You have some good backs but they'll need quick ball to damage.

 

[BillyWebb]

Well, I'm expecting a close one.
Sexton at 10 will be something new, but I'm not overly surprised.
O'Gara hasn't impressed me too much of late - although I can't say I have seen playing since the test against the Wallabies and Thomo was saying he was finding form again...

I hope the Boks have enough in mental and physical reserve for this one.

 

[PaarlBok]

This test is a bit of a "no win" situation for the Bokke. If they win , most supporters will say, its only the Iere if they lose, they will bitch about it till the 3 Nation starts. Dont think many Bok supporters realise the Iere strength.

 

[BillyWebb]

This test is a bit of a "no win" situation for the Bokke. If they win , most supporters will say, its only the Iere if they lose, they will bitch about it till the 3 Nation starts. Dont think many Bok supporters realise the Iere strength.

I said it on the Fern and I'll say it here too... If our guys were fresh, I'd back them to win this one each time (ok, maybe 9.8 times out of 10).
And I honestly don't mean to disrespect the Irish saying that. - although it no doubt smacks of arrogance!
It's more a reflection of how strong I think this Bok team is.
BUT, judging by the game against France, I just don't think the guys have enough gas left in the tank to take this test very easily. A test against Ireland in Dublin is a big ask at the best of times, and you only need to be slightly off your best to lose it.

 

[PaarlBok]

The one thing I liked in the Italy test is that I was worried till the replacements came. The moment Victor & kie joined they played some good rugby. Actually the first time since the BIL series our bench made a differense. Maybe a good thing if we can play Bekker, Deysel, du Preez exct from the start and then get the likes of Beast, Matfield and Schalk on to try and finish it off.

Then if I look at the Iere team it look like they want to start with a bang and bring on OGara and Stringer to dictate the latter parts of the match.

Maybe in future we should rather play overseas experiensed Bokke and rest those who played all season. Players like Francois Steyn, Jean de Villiers, Marius Joubert, Wikus van Heerden & Daan Human will know the enviroment and player setup very well up north and a change for Snor and the selectors to see the way they fit in the Bok setup. This maybe helpfull when we play a WC and you have the best possible Bok squad with debt.

 

[BillyWebb]

I like your suggestion of using European based players on the EOYT to give some of the over-exposed Boks a bit of a breather - even just playing off the bench.
You have PdV's ear... whisper it to him Paarl. :thumb

 

[PaarlBok]

I like your suggestion of using European based players on the EOYT to give some of the over-exposed Boks a bit of a breather - even just playing off the bench.
You have PdV's ear... whisper it to him Paarl. :thumb

Ja sure will get hold of him sometime next year and have a chat. He sort of broke this rule himself now with CJ & BJ and pretty sure BJ had shown his worth and holding tumbs he'll do the same on the weekend.

This will give us the oopertunity to stay on top till NZ & Aus are force to do the same.

 

[BillyWebb]

I like your suggestion of using European based players on the EOYT to give some of the over-exposed Boks a bit of a breather - even just playing off the bench.
You have PdV's ear... whisper it to him Paarl. :thumb

Ja sure will get hold of him sometime next year and have a chat. He sort of broke this rule himself now with CJ & BJ and pretty sure BJ had shown his worth and holding tumbs he'll do the same on the weekend.

This will give us the oopertunity to stay on top till NZ & Aus are force to do the same.

Just a pity he didn't break the rule for JdV. I'd much prefer him at 12 on Saturday than either Adi or Olivier.
Mind you, it doesn't sound like he's been that fantastic for Munster. Thomo?

 

[macg101]

I like your suggestion of using European based players on the EOYT to give some of the over-exposed Boks a bit of a breather - even just playing off the bench.
You have PdV's ear... whisper it to him Paarl. :thumb

Ja sure will get hold of him sometime next year and have a chat. He sort of broke this rule himself now with CJ & BJ and pretty sure BJ had shown his worth and holding tumbs he'll do the same on the weekend.

This will give us the oopertunity to stay on top till NZ & Aus are force to do the same.

Just a pity he didn't break the rule for JdV. I'd much prefer him at 12 on Saturday than either Adi or Olivier.
Mind you, it doesn't sound like he's been that fantastic for Munster. Thomo?

Hes been alright in fairness, hard to tell based on Munsters form at the moment

 

[PaarlBok]

I like your suggestion of using European based players on the EOYT to give some of the over-exposed Boks a bit of a breather - even just playing off the bench.
You have PdV's ear... whisper it to him Paarl. :thumb

Ja sure will get hold of him sometime next year and have a chat. He sort of broke this rule himself now with CJ & BJ and pretty sure BJ had shown his worth and holding tumbs he'll do the same on the weekend.

This will give us the oopertunity to stay on top till NZ & Aus are force to do the same.

Just a pity he didn't break the rule for JdV. I'd much prefer him at 12 on Saturday than either Adi or Olivier.
Mind you, it doesn't sound like he's been that fantastic for Munster. Thomo?

Yep I am Jean biased. He have this unique 12 play to let the players around him shining like mr Jacobs himself. Funnily I feel the Boks missed him more then WP and maybe the sign that Grant should play in 12 in green. Still believe thats Grants position. He is a solid defender, can distribute and have a good 12 boot.