Dingo Deans

[proton]

Apologies I wonder if it ever used to be the NZRFU? I sat in the first Coaching Course the NZRU ran. It had an impressive line up of coaches Wayne Smith included. It was the instigation of which led to Canterbury developing and putting them 2 years ahead of the rest of the country, that has led to a depth of talent they didnt just keep to themselves but opened up to the Sth Island as well. And the acccolades followed.

Maybe Henry was still at Kelston then with Muliaina and Mealamu because it was a time when Alex was coach and Robbie was still playing with Bruce his brother and the Earls. They clipped us in the club finals.

This was where Cantabury developed their strength at Grass Roots. Now we are paying top dollars to keep players in water adds and waiting for some snow ball to keep them in the game because they look nice in adds. Call me a disgruntalled fan but anyone who doesnt know who his best wingers are (quote) doesnt do it for me.

Mind you we have had a few coaches in NZ who havent delivered when the crunch comes.... and they included all those guns you have mentioned. Fitzsimmons said it well if NZ cant win at home with the team they have they need to take up croquet. No doubt the ABs will learn from the last game Aussie did from Eden Park.

It may have been a typo with the 30000 but if it was they would be able to afford to go at such short notice.

 

[proton]

yep go the Reds everyone knew they would win...

 

[proton]

I dont think the reds coach would have changed the guard as much. Hes not far off but. Deans wont go home until they sing out for him.

 

[proton]

but like bolt hes has a false start

 

[Braveheart81]

If it wasn't for Link, Radike Samo sure wouldn't have been playing for the Wallabies last Saturday night and we probably wouldn't have won the Tri Nations.

 

[barbarian]

Proton, when you reply to a post, hit the button at the bottom of each post that says 'reply with quote', then write your response.

Without the quoted original post it is hard to know who/what you are referring to.

 

[barbarian]

If it wasn't for Link, Radike Samo sure wouldn't have been playing for the Wallabies last Saturday night and we probably wouldn't have won the Tri Nations.

But if it wasn't for Eddie Jones, Samo wouldn't have been selected for the Brumbies in the first place, and then wouldn't have played for the Wallabies in 2004, thus would have probably ended up playing for Fiji, his country of birth, and not capturing the 3N for Australia in Brisbane in 2011.

 

[proton]

sorry mate first time been on one of these sites but its good to be able to read what everyone thinks

Proton, when you reply to a post, hit the button at the bottom of each post that says 'reply with quote', then write your response.

Without the quoted original post it is hard to know who/what you are referring to.

 

[barbarian]

sorry mate first time been on one of these sites but its good to be able to read what everyone thinks

No worries. You will get the hang of it. It's the quality of your opinions that matter, and you seem to be doing OK in that regard

 

[Bullrush]

Sure, Bullrush, we could ask the obviously disgruntled "employees" what they thought of the boss, but we know that answer.I was being facetious in response to the previous post. It is interesting how often Deans' coaching record at the Crusaders is downplayed, mainly by Kiwis, to reinforce the point he was not much chop, rather very lucky. Apparently it was Wayne Smith who did all the good work! Similarly, John Mitchell lost 2 out of 23 Tests (or was it 3?) and is regularly rubbished as a coach because he was distant from the players / media etc..., and he had such good players anyway.
Antipodean notes that Henry has done so well since taking over from Mitchell - they seemed to be travelling OK beforehand!!
Henry gets compared favourably to Deans with a 13-3 record in head to head, or whatever it is, which completely ignores the point about which 2 teams they are coaching. Swap the coaches, and it would not have been 13-3 the other way! I would hazard a guess it would be pretty similar to what it is now.There are so many factors in why a team succeeds or fails, and I for one don't believe it is all down to the coach. Of course they take the blame when it goes wrong, that's part of their brief.

1. Considering the calibre of those 'disgruntled' employees, they mite be worth at least listening to.

2. There is absolutely no way of knowing if the outcomes would be different if the coaches were swapped. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that Henry may actually have performed better. Because I think he is a better coach - not just because he has better players - which is what you seem to be implying.

Well, not completely obviously, but Deans did inherit a team that had won back to back S12 titles so he have a bit to work with. Obviously those guys weren't still round 10 years later and he did some brilliant development work to build the team that won titles in the mid/late 2000's.

It tends to get exaggerated both ways, I've noticed. Deans gets credit for developing guys like Marshall & Mehrtens who were All Blacks before he coached them for instance, and on the other side of the coin you get people dismissing his teams because anyone could win a title with Dan Carter, McCaw etc which ignores the fact that he was a big part of making them the players they are.

One thing I think that lead to quite a bit of the Robbie hate/schadenfreude was all the hysterical fucking Cantabs who said they were gonna support the Wallabies when Deans was passed over for Henry. I have to say that really rubbed me up the wrong way, and I can see how some might transfer this to hoping he failed with the Wallabies. I have to say the only time I've really wanted him to fail was after listening to Matt Gunn (an NZ based Aussie on Radio Sport) for a week after that Wallaby win in 2008. That was more about shutting up the radio cnut, though.
Don't get me wrong, I want the AB's to kill the Wallabies every time, but I don't wish any ill on Deans. I wouldn't have minded him as AB coach in 08 and would like to see him get a crack at some point.

Agreed. Add Deaker, Rattue and Doug Golightly to that list.

Apologies I wonder if it ever used to be the NZRFU? I sat in the first Coaching Course the NZRU ran. It had an impressive line up of coaches Wayne Smith included. It was the instigation of which led to Canterbury developing and putting them 2 years ahead of the rest of the country, that has led to a depth of talent they didnt just keep to themselves but opened up to the Sth Island as well. And the acccolades followed.

Maybe Henry was still at Kelston then with Muliaina and Mealamu because it was a time when Alex was coach and Robbie was still playing with Bruce his brother and the Earls. They clipped us in the club finals.

This was where Cantabury developed their strength at Grass Roots. Now we are paying top dollars to keep players in water adds and waiting for some snow ball to keep them in the game because they look nice in adds. Call me a disgruntalled fan but anyone who doesnt know who his best wingers are (quote) doesnt do it for me.

Mind you we have had a few coaches in NZ who havent delivered when the crunch comes.... and they included all those guns you have mentioned. Fitzsimmons said if NZ cant win at home with the team they have they need to take up croquet ha. The Aussies are playing at a faster pace when and if they need to and NZ needs to adjust. No doubt the ABs will learn from the last game Aussie did from Eden Park.

If I wasnt so wrapped up with the Broncos and watching Lokyer finish in style I would put my boots on but Henry has enough injuries to worry about plus he said its not important the tri nations I beg to differ.

It may have been a typo with the 30000 but if it was they would be able to afford to go at such short notice.

OK Disgruntled Fan, how the fuck did Dingo Deans keep picking Caleb Ralph as one of best wingers when the rest of NZ knew he wasn't?

 

[cyclopath]

Graham Henry may be a better coach, but it is undeniable he has had better players with which to work (and I didn't say it was "only" because he had better players). Which makes "head-to-head" comparisons redundant. Of course there is no way of knowing, but I doubt the ledger would have been in the Wallabies' favour. We achieved a > 50% win record against the ABs twice in short periods which coincided with very, very good Wallaby teams (91-94, 98-2002), in terms of the playing roster. Multiple players who would have contended for a World XV. Our playing group in recent years, while not hopeless at all, has not been at those levels. Anyway, a moot point.

 

[Bullrush]

Graham Henry may be a better coach, but it is undeniable he has had better players with which to work (and I didn't say it was "only" because he had better players). Which makes "head-to-head" comparisons redundant. Of course there is no way of knowing, but I doubt the ledger would have been in the Wallabies' favour. We achieved a > 50% win record against the ABs twice in short periods which coincided with very, very good Wallaby teams (91-94, 98-2002), in terms of the playing roster. Multiple players who would have contended for a World XV. Our playing group in recent years, while not hopeless at all, has not been at those levels. Anyway, a moot point.

I stopped reading after that.....lol

But yes, I see your point and agree - my opinion is simply that Henry may have gotten more from the Wallaby players or made better selections that what Deans has in the last 3 years or so. Whether the record would be any better is purely hypothetical....

 

[I like to watch]

Anyone see the doco on the lions tour when Henry was coach?
You couldn't argue he was better than ANY coach based on how he was portrayed in the doco.
It might well have been selective editing, but it showed him in a very poor light.

 

[Jay]

Graham Henry may be a better coach, but it is undeniable he has had better players with which to work (and I didn't say it was "only" because he had better players). Which makes "head-to-head" comparisons redundant. Of course there is no way of knowing, but I doubt the ledger would have been in the Wallabies' favour. We achieved a > 50% win record against the ABs twice in short periods which coincided with very, very good Wallaby teams (91-94, 98-2002), in terms of the playing roster. Multiple players who would have contended for a World XV. Our playing group in recent years, while not hopeless at all, has not been at those levels. Anyway, a moot point.

There's no denying Henry has better cattle, but that doesn't excuse the fact that under Deans the Wallabies have lost more than at any other time. Up to 1970, the Wallabies lost 72% of the time to the ABs. Under Deans it's been 78%.

Henry may not have been able to get parity had the roles been reversed, but it's hard to imagine he could have done much worse (cause no one has in 100 years).

 

[AngrySeahorse]

the robbie knockers give me the shits hard
hes backed the younger players and its no surprise we have many eith the best or in the top 2 or 3 for their position in the world
any other coach would have still taen mortlock, waugh baxter and dunning etc into this world cup
hes been the coach while we have seen a huge revival in aus rugby the last few year> theres no way the rds would have won without robbies influence on many of their start players
when he wins the world cup he will be getting my vote for australian of the year

Agree but I wouldnt say just younger players, look at the likes of Samo & Vickerman and few others still around, Robbie gives players a good enough chance but ultimately rewards form I find rather than reputation. Even at club level there is nothing that pisses me off more than players simply getting picked due to their experience and reputation, have been well and truly given enough chances & there are players who deserve to get a go (younger, same age or older) who get held back due to no experience.

 

[Red Rooster]

the robbie knockers give me the shits hard
hes backed the younger players and its no surprise we have many eith the best or in the top 2 or 3 for their position in the world
any other coach would have still taen mortlock, waugh baxter and dunning etc into this world cup
hes been the coach while we have seen a huge revival in aus rugby the last few year> theres no way the rds would have won without robbies influence on many of their start players
when he wins the world cup he will be getting my vote for australian of the year

What revival in australian rugby are we talking about - apart from the Reds (not coached by Robbie) the other 4 provinces went backwards in crowds, viewers and ladder position. The only positve is that the reds increases actually dragged the national average fwds. Dont be deceived about the true state. The relative position of the wallabies is unchanged

 

[Jay]

Agree but I wouldnt say just younger players, look at the likes of Samo & Vickerman and few others still around, Robbie gives players a good enough chance but ultimately rewards form I find rather than reputation. Even at club level there is nothing that pisses me off more than players simply getting picked due to their experience and reputation, have been well and truly given enough chances & there are players who deserve to get a go (younger, same age or older) who get held back due to no experience.

This is the same coach that persisted with Giteau at 10, Rocky at captain, Dean Mumm etc, though. If anything his selections have been pretty conservative, I reckon. Yeah, he's got the younger guys in there but for the most part it's cause he's got not a lot of choice.

There are a few genuinely good selections that he's done - blooding JOC (James O'Connor) young & introducing Pocock when he did (knowing that while Smith was still a world class player, he might not be the force Pocock is come 2011), but he's also persisted with some ordinary players.

 

[cyclopath]

There's no denying Henry has better cattle, but that doesn't excuse the fact that under Deans the Wallabies have lost more than at any other time. Up to 1970, the Wallabies lost 72% of the time to the ABs. Under Deans it's been 78%.

Henry may not have been able to get parity had the roles been reversed, but it's hard to imagine he could have done much worse (cause no one has in 100 years).

I don't like our record in the last 4 years. I don't put it all down to one man.
On a side issue - would we have got Henry / Smith / Hansen / Cron as a package? You guys could have had, umm, Phil Blake, Noriega, Jim Williams.... Good deal? No?

 

[Red Rooster]

But if it wasn't for Eddie Jones, Samo wouldn't have been selected for the Brumbies in the first place, and then wouldn't have played for the Wallabies in 2004, thus would have probably ended up playing for Fiji, his country of birth, and not capturing the 3N for Australia in Brisbane in 2011.

If it wasn't for Link - Kepu would still be in NZ, Palu in rugby league, and Kurtley would have signed for the Tigers etc etc

 

[Sully]

. Up to 1970, the Wallabies lost 72% of the time to the ABs. Under Deans it's been 78%.

You realise the difference between 78% and 72% is less than one game don't you. You can twist anything around to look bad if you try hard enough. And why exactly would we be comparing it to pre 1970 games?