Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[Rugbynutter39]

"How about Australian Rugby spends some of the that $1million you are proposing be spent on Hayne and instead direct it at retaining some dozens of the Schoolboys players we lose every single year. You only need to look at this years State of Origin series, Dane Gagai a former schoolboy rugby union player scored a hat-trick, Tyson Frizzel was NSW's best player, yet rewind a few years and he was lining up alongside Liam Gill, Scott Sio and Luke Jones to tour Europe with the Australian Schoolboys"

TOCC we are actually 100% on the same page that we can't lose player like you listed above to league. We could talk about players like Cooper Cronk also a former rugby union schoolboy as well as host of others.

We just think the answer may be different - just got to grow the game in terms of wider fan base and professional opportunities (which are interdependent) to ensure there is the money to retain those players.

 

[half]

Great weeks to get the kids to watch as the Tahs & Bunnies sorry Brumbies fight for top spot in our group. Go the Woodies.

Force 3 V Stromers 22
Tahs 17 V Cains 28
Crusaders 85 V Rebels 26
Reds 5 V Chiefs 50
Blues 40 V Bumble Bees 15

 

[flat_eric]

Great weeks to get the kids to watch as the Tahs & Bunnies sorry Brumbies fight for top spot in our group. Go the Woodies.

Force 3 V Stromers 22
Tahs 17 V Cains 28
Crusaders 85 V Rebels 26
Reds 5 V Chiefs 50
Blues 40 V Bumble Bees 15

Australian rugby is perhaps at its lowest ebb (performance wise) in recent history, and we've had some shocking periods over the last 12 years.

 

[Strewthcobber]

International level - generally the ARU can compete $$$ wise

Super Rugby level - can't compete with Europe/Japan, can outbid league for good prospects

"3rd tier" - nominal payments only, league, os rugby will offer more

Development/pre-pro level, top level guys can be retained in EPS etc, but much more opportunity in league

Colts level, league wins $$$ but union has uni links that appeal to some players.

Schoolboy, rugby on top, generally because of facilities and schorlarships that private schools offer independent of the ARU

Need to close some of these gaps, but I haven't heard any suggestions that would do so and I have no idea how we could go about it.

 

[wamberal]

The only thing I can think of is a system of transfer fees.

 

[The torpedo]

Great weeks to get the kids to watch as the Tahs & Bunnies sorry Brumbies fight for top spot in our group. Go the Woodies.

Force 3 V Stromers 22
Tahs 17 V Cains 28
Crusaders 85 V Rebels 26
Reds 5 V Chiefs 50
Blues 40 V Bumble Bees 15

Aus sides averaged 13 (rounded) ppg this round.
Aus opposition averaged 45 ppg this round

 

[wamberal]

Aus sides averaged 13 (rounded) ppg this round.
Aus opposition averaged 45 ppg this round

Go the Woodies.

 

[Quick Hands]

So half could the NRC be the vehicle to expand into a national domestic competition? And could this actually be a behind the scenes bit of thinking with the ARU creating this competition with a longer term vision? As your line of questioning got me thinking about long term vision they may have for NRC as at least it is a national competition.

Maybe we don't give enough credit for the ARU realising this but got to start somewhere which probably was with a shortened national domestic competition?

Thoughts?

As far as I know, the NRC is designed to run at the same time of the year as the Currie Cup in SA and the Mitre 10 Cup (ITM Cup) in NZ - (both of which start mid August) i.e. after the Super rugby season. Some people would have us believe that it's played when it is because other stakeholders objected - this is simply not true.

As far as we have been told, the ARU vision for the NRC involves a mid-August start and a mid-October finish (in line with the abovementioned SA and NZ competitions).

Whether or not we should have a national club competition running from Feb/March to August (also in line with what happens in NZ and SA) is a separate concept. It's probably a good concept, but it's not something that the ARU have considered to my knowledge.

 

[Quick Hands]

International level - generally the ARU can compete $$$ wise

Super Rugby level - can't compete with Europe/Japan, can outbid league for good prospects

"3rd tier" - nominal payments only, league, os rugby will offer more

Development/pre-pro level, top level guys can be retained in EPS etc, but much more opportunity in league

Colts level, league wins $$$ but union has uni links that appeal to some players.

Schoolboy, rugby on top, generally because of facilities and schorlarships that private schools offer independent of the ARU

Need to close some of these gaps, but I haven't heard any suggestions that would do so and I have no idea how we could go about it.

It will be a long haul, made more difficult by lack of rugby infrastructure (people and facilities) and a general lack of money.

The good news is that the ARU have finally realised that there is a problem - the bad news is that we don't really have enough money to fix it and that any fix is a long term enterprise (15-20 years).

 

[Dave Beat]

By finishing the Shute Shield and Premier Rugby comps mid July you are ending the season of allot of rugby players far to early - this aint good for the game.

 

[Quick Hands]

Not sure what the solution is. Is it possible to have 1st grade finish early to allow guys to play NRC and 2s-4s plus colts play another month?

Just a thought.

 

[TOCC]

By finishing the Shute Shield and Premier Rugby comps mid July you are ending the season of allot of rugby players far to early - this aint good for the game.

The current season length was decided by the Shute Shield a few years ago based on what the clubs thought was best, what brought them to this decision and what has changed which now suggests this is different?

 

[Dave Beat]

The current season length was decided by the Shute Shield a few years ago based on what the clubs thought was best, what brought them to this decision and what has changed which now suggests this is different?

I'm not sure whether that is true, or untrue.

I think i recall the powers above reducing the season when the first half we played against each club, and then it was Top 6 / Bottom 6 - i believe this was done to accommodate the reduced season.
People didn't like that so it was changed to what we now have,

 

[Braveheart81]

Or actually TOCC to highlight my point - A-League marquee strategy was to bring in high profile aged European players and pay them many millions despite knowing they would never represent Australia.

Huge success in growing A-League, so why could not the same be applied for getting Hayne to grow Super Rugby. And why could it not be equally a success.

It's a very different situation though.

The A-League has been able to sign players like Alessandro Del Piero at age 39 who can come out here and be one of the stars of the A-League. That is the reality of the level of the competition that an ageing superstar who is well past his prime and available for a fraction of his previous salary can come to the A-League and be excellent.

The same opportunity just doesn't exist in rugby. Super Rugby has consistently been the best club competition in the world and it just isn't possible to bring in a player in the twilight of their career that will still dominate the competition and attract huge numbers of fans because they are a legend around the world.

Signing Jarryd Hayne may work out, but the price tag will be expensive and it is unlikely he will attract a huge number of additional fans. He played rugby league in Sydney for years so it is not like he is a guy who Australian sports fans have wished to get a glimpse at but have never had an opportunity to see live. At the end of the day he'd need to be an out and out success in rugby for it to have any benefit for the ARU.

As TOCC and others have stated, the A-League has a lot of football fans to work with in Australia who follow European leagues and/or have huge cultural ties to the game. There are a lot of potential fans who already love the game to convert to following your league.

I think the ARU's biggest challenge is developing more rugby fans. The pathways and opportunities for players to become professional rugby players in Australia have never been better. Our problem is growing the fanbase to the extent that it can provide the financial support for the game.

Test rugby is currently the only rugby that is at all viable on FTA in prime time. Improved success there is the only thing likely to bring in more viewers to create more exposure to other levels of the game.

 

[half]

International level - generally the ARU can compete $$$ wise

Super Rugby level - can't compete with Europe/Japan, can outbid league for good prospects

"3rd tier" - nominal payments only, league, os rugby will offer more

Development/pre-pro level, top level guys can be retained in EPS etc, but much more opportunity in league

Colts level, league wins $$$ but union has uni links that appeal to some players.

Schoolboy, rugby on top, generally because of facilities and schorlarships that private schools offer independent of the ARU

Need to close some of these gaps, but I haven't heard any suggestions that would do so and I have no idea how we could go about it.

Strewth

Your analysis is over simplified and at times well off the mark.

International level - generally the ARU can compete $$$ wise ... Yes but rate less than league and at international level rate less than soccer

Development/pre-pro level, top level guys can be retained in EPS etc, but much more opportunity in league

Colts level, league wins $$$ but union has uni links that appeal to some players.
But league, AFL, soccer all run multi clubs and AFL and soccer also have links to universities. Meaning 10 soccer, 18 AFL, 16 league first sides thats 44 sides + their youth teams 88 teams looking for Australia's best young players. Also at the next level down the AFL & NRL run numerous semi professional competitions and soccer today has a National Premier League with 100 semi professional sides.

Many pathways for players between 12 & 17 in the other codes.
AFL is more of a threat than league.
Schoolboy, rugby on top, generally because of facilities and schorlarships that private schools offer independent of the ARU
What rugby on top in schools maybe a small number of private schools, but the vast majority of schools in NSW, ACT, QLD play league and soccer and in the southern states AFL & soccer.



The Bill Turner Cup is the biggest by light years school sporting competition in Australia last year they had I think 800 + teams from over 400 schools including many if not all private schools and its a soccer competition.

see the link ... http://www.billturnersoccer.com.au

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History of successful sporting competitions be they soccer, basketball, AFL, NRL, American Hockey - Gridiron -Baseball - are all based on national domestic competitions that draws from local districts players and fans that feed the team and that competition supports national teams.

Its the model almost the entire world uses. I not suggesting some untried model or something new.

We need IMO to have faith in our game, faith in what we do, bite the bullet and develop a national domestic competition that becomes the single most important part of rugby in Australia.

 

[Braveheart81]

History of successful sporting competitions be they soccer, basketball, AFL, NRL, American Hockey - Gridiron -Baseball - are all based on national domestic competitions that draws from local districts players and fans that feed the team and that competition supports national teams.

Its the model almost the entire world uses. I not suggesting some untried model or something new.

We need IMO to have faith in our game, faith in what we do, bite the bullet and develop a national domestic competition that becomes the single most important part of rugby in Australia.

Rugby is almost unique in the fact that test matches are the centre point of the sport at the elite level and always have been.

It is difficult to uncouple that when that is where the revenue is generated and our ability to compete in that environment is crucial to our ability to generate revenue.

It can't be blind faith though because we don't have a monopoly on the talent and if we can't reward them competitively, we lose them.

Almost without doubt a big injection of private equity into the game in Australia would be of huge benefit to our ability to grow the tiers below test rugby. It doesn't seem like there is a big appetite for that however which is disappointing. If only wealthy people in Australia took a fraction as much interest in rugby as they do horseracing.

 

[wamberal]

The rich are too smart to invest in rugby. That's why they're rich. Horse racing in Australia is controlled here. We set the rules, and administer them. Ditto for the AFL and the NRL. Compare and contrast with rugby.


Look at poor bloody Harold Mitchell. How much did he lose on the Rebels.


As for the international dimension, the only big money local supporters of soccer seem to be the Lowy family.

Basketball is more international than rugby, and yet it fails to excite much interest from the big end of town.

 

[Braveheart81]

The rich are too smart to invest in rugby. That's why they're rich. Horse racing in Australia is controlled here. We set the rules, and administer them. Ditto for the AFL and the NRL. Compare and contrast with rugby.


Look at poor bloody Harold Mitchell. How much did he lose on the Rebels.

These things are generally lifestyle assets.

In most cases they do lose substantial amounts of money.

 

[Strewthcobber]

******************

History of successful sporting competitions be they soccer, basketball, AFL, NRL, American Hockey - Gridiron -Baseball - are all based on national domestic competitions that draws from local districts players and fans that feed the team and that competition supports national teams.

Its the model almost the entire world uses. I not suggesting some untried model or something new.

We need IMO to have faith in our game, faith in what we do, bite the bullet and develop a national domestic competition that becomes the single most important part of rugby in Australia.

Half, I was talking about existing pathways - and the struggle we have to just maintain an interest in the players we have.

But on your other point, do you think it's interesting that there's a top league (or few leagues for soccer) in each of your examples? Most of the world develops and supplies players to that best league. and inevitably the national comps decline in importance because it's the clubs who pay the salaries and get to choose the tune.

Our comp won't be the best league....

The players that will feed your domestic comp have lots of other options (which is almost unique amongst sports) - some can play league, some can play rugby OS. We are in a competitive global marketplace for players.

Given the sort of salary which will be offered what sort of player will be in the comp, are we getting international standard or sub-super level? And in the asnwer to that question, do you think a sustainable number of people can be persuaded to watch or attend?

Increasingly, people only want to watch the best - it's a winner-takes-all society. My view is that a national dometic comp could only offer relatively poor salaries and hence realitvely poor players. I don't think we'd get people to watch and the game fizzles out here long term.

Love if you could convince me otherwise.

 

[Quick Hands]

The current season length was decided by the Shute Shield a few years ago based on what the clubs thought was best, what brought them to this decision and what has changed which now suggests this is different?

Nothing has changed. The SS was reduced from 22 to 18 rounds to assist in the introduction of the NRC. This tends to disprove the view held by some on these thread that SS clubs are trying to sabotage rugby in Australia. There is no proposal that I have heard of to finish the SS later than it is going to finish this year. It won't happen.

(see post #348 so I don't have to repeat why the NRC is played when it is)

There is an issue about when colts and lower grades finish - next weekend if they don't make the semis. It could be possible to finish 1st grade (which is the Shute Shield btw) as it is now and have lower grades and colts finish their season at the same time as subbies and juniors (regular comp ends mid August and grand finals in early/mid September). This would have absolutely no impact on the NRC at all.