Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[TOCC]

You seem to have been to SRU records to find out, surely you know why the season was shortened?

So no one on here knows? What i do know is the SRU Board is/was made up of 6 directors, 3 of whom were club chairmans, 2 were independent directors with no other club or ARU/NSWRU affiliation and the 6th member was a NSWRU appointee.

People are quick to lay blame on the NRC for the shortened Shute Shield Season, i merely wanted to debunk the rumour, as its clearly evident that the Shute Shield reduced in length 3 years before the inaugural NRC. Maybe some of this frustration which seems to be directed at the NRC for the SS season length should be redirected at the Shute Shield Club Chairmans who supported the decision to shorten the season to start with.

 

[half]

Rugbynutter39

Thanks for the nice words.

You and a couple of others seem to understand the urgency [if that is not too strong a word], of our position.

I copped a bit and I started to repeat myself so stopped posting what I see as the starting point.

Pages 9 thru to 14 I start building and then somewhere in those pages even attempt to post costings.

My reading of the Tea Leafs is SANDZAAR is more concerned about itself and growing the Super Rugby brand than they are about the Australian game. Moreover we are seen somewhat as bringers of our own fate by other members of SANDZAAR and why should they pay more than they do know to fix ARU problems.

At the core of our issues is money or lack their of would explain it better. Along with a lack of funds is the lack of a large pyramid base to supply players to the more senior sides and workable pathways for talented players. AFL and NRL are raiding our rep sides from U 15 to U 18, and soccer embarked about 8 years ago to identify their best players from U 10 to U 16 and keep those players and they have whereas previosly 70% would have gone to other codes.

My estimate of our current revenue is 130 million based on the new TV deal worth 60 million, 36 million dollars in other ARU revenue like ticket sales to test matches [this was calculated when the media deal was 24 million with a 60 million revenue] the final 34 million my guess on Super teams gate and sponsorship revenue.

My solution is back some ways in pages 9 to 14. Have an 8 team Australia only competition using the existing 5 teams + Western Sydney out of Penerith, a Combined Newcaster Hunter Central Coast to play out of a small stadium + one other. Will get IMO between 70 & 80 million in revenue and that is the starting point. Have faith in the game it will make the 70 to 80 million and will grow from there.

 

[Braveheart81]

You and a couple of others seem to understand the urgency [if that is not too strong a word], of our position.

I copped a bit and I started to repeat myself so stopped posting what I see as the starting point.

Pages 9 thru to 14 I start building and then somewhere in those pages even attempt to post costings.

This isn't about you. No one was having a go at you personally. We were discussing the topic and identifying problems with some of the suggestions made. In no way was that a personal attack on you.

My estimate of our current revenue is 130 million based on the new TV deal worth 60 million, 36 million dollars in other ARU revenue like ticket sales to test matches [this was calculated when the media deal was 24 million with a 60 million revenue] the final 34 million my guess on Super teams gate and sponsorship revenue.

My solution is back some ways in pages 9 to 14. Have an 8 team Australia only competition using the existing 5 teams + Western Sydney out of Penerith, a Combined Newcaster Hunter Central Coast to play out of a small stadium + one other. Will get IMO between 70 & 80 million in revenue and that is the starting point. Have faith in the game it will make the 70 to 80 million and will grow from there.

Again, we get back to this point.

You're looking at a situation where you blow the top off the revenue generated by the ARU and then add on a huge amount of cost by adding three extra teams.

How long for and how much interest can a competition of 8 teams run for? 4 games a week isn't a whole lot of content to sell.

What does playing in a weaker competition do to the strength of the Wallabies which are our greatest money earner?

I really think an incremental approach is the only possible way forward. If you turned everything on its head and we went broke in a year would that really be good enough because you could say "at least we tried something."?

 

[Quick Hands]

So no one on here knows? What i do know is the SRU Board is/was made up of 6 directors, 3 of whom were club chairmans, 2 were independent directors with no other club or ARU/NSWRU affiliation and the 6th member was a NSWRU appointee.

People are quick to lay blame on the NRC for the shortened Shute Shield Season, i merely wanted to debunk the rumour, as its clearly evident that the Shute Shield reduced in length 3 years before the inaugural NRC. Maybe some of this frustration which seems to be directed at the NRC for the SS season length should be redirected at the Shute Shield Club Chairmans who supported the decision to shorten the season to start with.

No one is "blaming" anyone. I'd have thought that it would be seen as a good thing that SS and NRC seem to be working together for the common good. I repeat - I have no issue with the competition being played over 18 rounds. I have no issue with first grade finishing in mid-August to fit in with the NRC.

There is an issue about lower grades and colts, who are community level participants, the majority of whom will finish their rugby season this Saturday and the rest over the next 3 weeks. It shouldn't take much to extend the season for those people to the same finish time as club juniors and subbies. There's no logical reason why 1st grade can't finish early and the others simply keep playing.

I don't know why you keep wanting to promote conflict between SS and NRC when none exists. You seem to see everything through the prism of us v them. All levels of rugby should be working together to make each level of the game stronger. More local juniors mean that club rugby is stonger, stronger club rugby (everywhere, not just Sydney) means that the NRC will be stronger, a stronger NRC should mean that our Super teams are stronger and on to the Wallabies.

 

[Braveheart81]

Subbies seem to like going until mid-September, why wouldn't lower grade and colts?

Subbies seems to be a shorter season. Looks like 14 rounds and then finals.

Grade is 18 rounds plus finals.

For teams that miss the finals, do you really think they want more games? It's probably been a tough enough season as it is.

Sydney AFL play 18 games plus finals.

A Sydney soccer league seemed to be 12 games plus finals.

I'd be interested to hear from people who are playing in these competitions as to whether they think their seasons should be longer.

My involvement in adult sport has been through playing cricket. Our season is about 18 playing weekends plus finals and certainly that is well and truly long enough. The teams that don't make the finals often struggle badly for players at the end of the season as people lose interest and suddenly don't make themselves available.

Maybe the competitions should start later rather than having more rounds?

 

[TOCC]

No one is "blaming" anyone. I'd have thought that it would be seen as a good thing that SS and NRC seem to be working together for the common good. I repeat - I have no issue with the competition being played over 18 rounds. I have no issue with first grade finishing in mid-August to fit in with the NRC.

There has certainly been mutterings on this forum previously about the NRC impacting on the length of the SS seasons.. Thats why i was quick to point out that the SS reduced the season length years before the NRC..

Also there is no promoting of conflict here, just trying to keep the discussion factual about changes in the length of the season for the SS and who/why that decision was made. That shouldn't be conflicting for anyone, cooperation between the NRC and Shute Shield is imperative to the future of Australian Rugby.

Still i must ask, if the SRU decided to reduce the season back in 2011, then why did they do so and what has changed since? Surely if there is talk of expanding the season then an organisation must consider why the decision was made to change it 5 years ago.

 

[Quick Hands]

But there is no serious talk at any level beyond a few on an internet forum to expand the season. It's a non-event. It won't happen.

 

[Quick Hands]

Maybe the competitions should start later rather than having more rounds?

The reason that grade is finishing at this time is so the SS season finishes before the NRC - which I hope that everyone agrees is a good thing.

 

[Braveheart81]

The reason that grade is finishing at this time is so the SS season finishes before the NRC - which I hope that everyone agrees is a good thing.

Yes, we have all agreed that is the reason and is required.

The question had moved to lower grades and subbies finishing soon and whether that should be the case.

My take would be that an 18 round season is long enough for a non professional competition. You could certainly play it later though but clearly club rugby also relies on alignment of grades all playing the same team on the same day (and colts doing the same at the opposing ground).

 

[half]

Part of an article from The Roar today written by a Kiwi who feels sorry for us. Has a lot in common with this thread ...

http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/07/12/kiwis-sympathy-sorry-state-aussie-rugby/#comment-5029423



I’ve heard from those with their cauliflowered ears close to the rugby grounds that the weekend’s shocking showing could just be the start of a number of structural chickens coming home to roost to completely s**t all over Australian rugby.


A few I’ve spoken to are witnessing first hand just how asleep at the wheel the ARU and NSWRU are at winning young hearts and minds.
For a start there’s been a steady decline in playing numbers in NSW junior club rugby and the state’s GPS rugby nursery.
The well organised and rapacious AFL has already made in-roads into this rugby bastion with Riverview College having introduced the code many years ago and Joeys – a Wallabies production line and alma mater of Matt Burke and Kurtley Beale – rumoured to be bringing it in next year.
Kings is a powerhouse whose first XV is leading the GPS comp with Scots at present, having produced more Wallabies and Super Rugby players than any other school in the last ten years, including Stirling Mortlock, Benn Robinson, Nick Phipps, Dean Mumm, Daniel Halangahu and Julian Huxley.
Yet they have just four teams in the Under 13s compared to eight football teams. Apparently the reverse was the case a few short years ago.

My mates in the know reckon the CAS competition is weaker than its ever been with playing numbers at Knox, Cranbrook and Waverley down and their best players just flogged in the annual CAS versus GPS fixture. 


So what’s being done to arrest the decline in numbers?
Virtually nothing. 

The recent NSW Under-11 State Rugby Championship tournament in Menai in Sydney’s South is an example of the apathy. 

Held during the June Test window, the Super Rugby hiatus was a golden opportunity to get some non Test-playing Tahs along to show their face at the Waratahs tent.
Maybe hold a clinic or hand out the jerseys, anything to lend their star power to the kids? But there was no player in sight. Indeed there was actually no Waratahs tent.
If it was AFL they would have had Buddy Franklin there high-fiving the kids as they ran on.
And as for Shute Shield, don’t go there. Very few people do. And I can’t help but wonder at the sustainability of the NRC as a long-term pathway to the top.
Of course this is all anecdotal, and NSW-based. But it appears to paint at least part of the picture of national structural decline. One that will rear its ugly head with more weekends like the one just gone.
Less than a year ago the Wallabies beat the All Blacks in their opening Bledisloe fixture in Sydney. A few short months later they survived the Pool of Death for a heroic run to the final of the Rugby World Cup.
This is still a nation that can foot it with and beat the best. But what of ten years, even five years from now when that dwindling cohort of top junior and schoolboy players starts to flush through?
Will Australis still be a viable rugby power? Is it even that now? The unthinkable needs to be thought about very deeply by Bill Pulver and co and acted on right away at the grassroots, otherwise there’ll be little hay to make in the sunshine.

 

[Braveheart81]

The recent NSW Under-11 State Rugby Championship tournament in Menai in Sydney’s South is an example of the apathy. 

Held during the June Test window, the Super Rugby hiatus was a golden opportunity to get some non Test-playing Tahs along to show their face at the Waratahs tent.
Maybe hold a clinic or hand out the jerseys, anything to lend their star power to the kids? But there was no player in sight. Indeed there was actually no Waratahs tent.

 

[half]

^^^^^^

You seem spot on the Kiwi got it wrong on the Menia day. That does not change the structural issues he was speaking about.

I also read the posts on the threat and some made for some scary reading.

 

[wamberal]

I still cannot work out for the life of me what the ARU or anybody else can realistically do about the falling off in junior participation rates.

Our three "football" competitors are all much simpler games to understand, and, let it be said, are probably more fun to play. Everybody gets a kick, or a pass or tackle. They are all essentially democratic.Our game is complicated, and very messy at junior levels and is still built on the notion that the pigs win it, and the the princesses play with it. Or, conversely, the piggies just keep it, and the princesses stand around with their hands in their panties.


We have never had a strong rugby culture in this country, beyond elite school competitions, a couple of universities, and certain suburbs.


Our success following the advent of professionalism was built on a quick acceptance and exploitation of professionalism, some handy coaching inputs from the rival code which, helpfully, was tearing itself apart in the "Super League Wars". And we snaffled the 2003 RWC. That was the end of the boom.


We are now experiencing the new normal. The state of the game now is better than it was in the 50s and 60s, but not by much (and only because of pay tv revenues). Meanwhile the local competitors go from strength to strength.


I am just putting this dismal picture here, again, because it is said that the first step in winning a battle, let alone a war, is to take a realistic inventory of your own and your enemies' strengths and weaknesses.


Sorry to be so gloomy, but it all looks pretty gloomy to me.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I certainly agree with other folks here that we are at a dangerous point with the participation in the game in OZ. The optics of the Wallabies and Super rugby teams having poor years doesn't help either. In terms of pathways an issue we have is that so many of our elite players seem to come mainly from the private school systems. My son goes to the equivalent of a GPS school here in WA (and plays rugby at school, Aussie Rules on the weekend) so this isn't an anti-private school view, far from it. The issue is that in spite of the enrollments in private schools increasing proportionally over the years (at least in WA) the base is pretty narrow and a lot of the families of boys going to those schools aren't your traditional targets of rugby (i.e. Asian families who are focused more on academic performance than sport -- and rightly so).

So what to do? It's really got to come down to effort and investment in the club system. Schools rugby is important, yes, but the broader base is in the clubs. Again from a WA perspective, we have a far bigger and healthier junior club system than in schools. The PSA (all boys private schools) system has seven schools, all of whom play rugby. But they also play soccer and Aussie rules. There are some other schools that play rugby but it's fairly sparse (though growing). One look at the WA schoolboys team shows that there is a roughly 50/50 mix of state and private schools represented. I actually regard this as a good thing. The majority of state school players are actually involved in clubs, playing on Saturdays. With the tradition around PSA (and seemingly GPS over East) 1st and 2nd XV's playing also playing on Saturdays, I think it breaks the bond between club and player. For Yr 7's onwards, the WAFL districts changed game days to Sundays, with part of the reason being that they wanted boys from private schools also able to continue to play club footy. I know at my son's club, easily 60% of the boys across the age groups attend the two private schools in the area. The point I'm making (in a round about way) is that anything that can be done to encourage boys to play club footy should be IMHO.

Overall I think the JGC and NRC are steps in the right direction, but it will require everyone to get on board with it. I also think that focused, consistent effort with the junior and senior club systems is vital to the future of the game in this country. One of the reasons why Australia punches above its weight globally in sport is the strength of club sport in our national culture. You only have to look at cricket and hockey and how strong those club competitions to see a couple of examples. The centres of excellence exist but my experience has been that the clubs haven't been forgotten about in all this.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I'll also add that what I'm seeing over this side of the country is an effort on the part of RugbyWA and the ARU to engage kids in playing the game. My boy went to a three day clinic last week (it's school holidays here) at Nedlands, one of the bigger clubs in Perth. In addition, there was Camp Wallaby in the April holidays at Hale School (a noted rugby school in WA) and RugbyWA is holding the Road To Rio 7's camp as we speak. So things are being done and hopefully there is a positive knock on effect (pardon the pun).

 

[wamberal]

Agree totally with The Brown Hornet that the sooner all stakeholders agree that we all need to work together, the better off we will be.

 

[Westie]

Those kids wouldn't know who they were. Ffs. Get real.

 

[Dave Beat]

Those kids wouldn't know who they were. Ffs. Get real.

Maybe, Likely, one of the reason i think it should be at the club level. So kids can also support them on the weekend. I have great memories all those years ago;

Then it started raining, and the kids had even more fun;

These kids know who the players are.

The old saying - do things well repeatedly, with consistency, is what needs to be done.

 

[Dave Beat]

We need to look at what, how, who,

Plenty of ideas - good, bad, impossible, but what, how, who.

Something that i have found out through research and work over the past 12 months is it appears the ARU has passed on the development and growth of our game to the state unions. I have no issue with this as the state unions should know their market and the driving forces behind that market.

It is the state unions that need to be researching, understanding, delivering, and providing leadership. It is then up to the members, associates (clubs) and supporters to support and contribute to the state unions who should be leading by example. It is allot easier to support a good leader when they have a structure and plan.

There are many touch points to achieve this, ranging from the mini's to the golden oldies. Ensuring they are touched, will ensure they are assisting with growth.

 

[half]

Again, we get back to this point.

You're looking at a situation where you blow the top off the revenue generated by the ARU and then add on a huge amount of cost by adding three extra teams.

How long for and how much interest can a competition of 8 teams run for? 4 games a week isn't a whole lot of content to sell.

What does playing in a weaker competition do to the strength of the Wallabies which are our greatest money earner?

I really think an incremental approach is the only possible way forward. If you turned everything on its head and we went broke in a year would that really be good enough because you could say "at least we tried something."?

Maybe I am totally wrong however I see expansion by League to 18 teams and soccer to 12 within 5 years with league having and end of season annual four nations. Aus, NZ, PNG & a PI side.

The AFL I think offer now over 20 something round plus finals about 210 games and league a similar number of games. Soccer when it goes to 12 teams and finals will offer even more and if you add their FFA Cup matches and Asian Champions League they could have well over 250 games.

They all have far more players than us and by and large better TV broadcast deals.

We struggle today for quality player in the future if you add a cashed up cricket and Basketball as well then we will struggle for the best sports people.

Do you in all seriousness believe we can compete with whats coming.

The answer to your drop in revenue is essentially simple and means taking a bitter pill maybe a pill to hard to sallow. We need to lower the competition and like soccer select the national team from overseas based players.

To continue as we are is to repeat what is failing.

We need to have faith in our game. We need to essentially believe we can build a national competition.

My sides.

East Sydney
West Sydney
Brisbane
Canberra
Melbourne
Perth
Northern Sydney
Newcastle/Hunter / Central coast

Eight teams 27 rounds + Finals into if on offer a NZ/SA / AU playoff serious.