Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[Pfitzy]

Right. Leaving the money thing aside, because quite frankly it bores me:

The NRC is having a stellar year. It should be more available (FTA), and have a longer season. That will get the attention of the kiddies, and take rugby outside the comfort zone a little. Initiatives like the Pacific Islands Days is key as well, because especially in places like Western Sydney, it can be a really good, positive tool to keep people in the game.

With another two teams inside the next 5 years.

So, with a big pat on the shoulder to Premier Rugby for all its hard work, it is time we got a wriggle on, hmm?

 

[Quick Hands]

I suggested a longer NRC season back on page 40 and was criticised up hill and down dale.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

At school boy level yes maybe not - but include it at club level is more my message - gets people wanting to continue in club land and gets ball rolling. Sell at club level it works pressure at next levels.

Got to start somewhere and at club level and below Australia has some control I would have thought at those levels and below.

I disagree that would not help participation and fan participation as would send a big message in Australia that we are serious in leading the charge to make rugby more appealing to wider fan base. Start at schools and clubs. I guess I am trying to make rugby in oz send a message that we really are changing as this direction of change inevitable and saids we are going to lead on the change.

It is pushing for seeds of change and getting hopefully more pressure at IRB level to move more quickly for change at higher levels.

Clearly the biggest change would be changing at higher levels but unfortunately we have less control in that front and rely on lobbying others.

This conversation is very relevant as do people think we could really sustain a 8 or 16 team domestic competition based on current rules. Not a chance as masses are not interested based on current product/rules and points system. Hence, this is getting conversation real about what needs to change if those who want a financially sustainable long form 8 or 16 national domestic competition need to engage on the debate on.

I also think the whole bit on need to have more yellow cards etc is over played as league already rewards tries by the latter being double a penalty. Look at how many penalty goals are kicked in league compared to union. And hence they seem to manage it ok with sin bin.

If people are going to keep raising having national professional expanded long form competition of 8 or 16 teams they need to get real and look at what needs to change to get more fan appeal for the product to support this.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^I didn't say that it wouldn't help participation. I just said that at the lower levels it's not such a big issue.

 

[half]

Half yes been to wanderers and Sydney fc games and lots of afl games - the young as high energy games with constant movement which helps with the passion - the opportunity to constantly get points via penalties and the slowing of positive momentum it creates kills the game for the young. Until that changes across the board rugby will never really achieve much growth - change that I think rugby would and could topple league in popularity with all the other things going for it
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Nutter

I have never been to an AFL match and the boss has dragged me to a few Mariners matches.

I am looking at this purely at the age and passion of the fans.

The Wanders fans [thats were we sat] seemed on the whole under mid 30's.

I contrast this to recent test matches I have been too were they play 70's & 60's music over the speakers and there are many grey heads for me to talk too.

The bloke I went with is a real westie follows Parra, and used to love the matches between Wests and Manly with the silver tails V West.

We were roughly 100 or so meters from the RBB but in the middle of Wanders fans.

In some chants the entire Wanders fan base would stand up and belt out.

One chant had a fellow I guess from East Sydney as he and his what looked like grand kids left with the guy saying disgrace and I sat there in total disbelief. BTW he was one of the 3 grey heads I saw.

The chant went something like this [I will get the last line right] and Mums and Dads belted this out with raised arms and challenged the SFC fans to reply.

The Chant

la la ... la la la
Fuck Off East Sydney.

It was belted out like a war cry.

AS the RBB started the chant I noticed five huge islander security types advance towards the RBB so they threw lollies and paper at them until they backed away.

The feeling was electric the Wanders fans were essentially trying to sing their team on. SFC fans replied and the noise was huge.

Kids both boys and girls were caught in the magic of the fans. I have been to SOO, League grand finals, Eastwood grand finals. Nothing comes close to these fans.

My concern was not for my safety as there was no danger just join in and scream. My concern was how does rugby come close to matching this.

My take on western Sydney is essentially from Bankstown, Lidcombe, Ryde, Epping out to the far reaches.

Back to my test matches I am common at rugby test matches, but uncommon at soccer.

We urgently need to get players and people excited. I challenge anyone to attend a Waneders V SFC and come away thinking we don't need a national domestic competition.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Quick Hands

I think longer form NRC is wrong place to start. Sow the seeds of change and ingrain the new way of rugby at schools and club level (grass roots) with rule changes re: 2 points for a penalty and 4,5 or 6 points for a try.

Sell the concept at lower financial risk levels at school and club level. Get people at these younger and club levels exposed to new way of rugby. Get them excited about new ways of rugby and those involved

Then when seed better sowed and better exposure for new way of rugby taken the next step of expanded national domestic long form NRC type competition. But definitely don't do latter now as too much financial risk, there is a safer way to sow the seeds of change as per what I have outlined.

 

[Lindommer]

Question: how do the Kiwis fit their club competitions in with NPC?

 

[Highlander35]

A longer NRC is a good idea, it'd just require a bit of a more significant buy in from both Clubs and Super sides.

Play the first round robin through the last part of the Super Season overlapping with the June window, take a break for Super/Club Finals, then play the second round robin during the Rugby Championship.

Reckon that'd work fairly well. If you could get the buy in from both levels, that'd be even better than it is now for development and exposure, be better for late season match fitness for the other Super guys than playing club rugby on top of that.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Half I have been to wanderers and Sydney FC games so know what you are talking about - part of this is soccer culture - having lived in Uk for 6 years. Bit more to this than just national competition. Wanderers supporter block are also well known and organised.

But the nature of the game lends itself to this energy - constant movement of the ball from one end of the pitch to the next. Rugby fails to have this energy in many cases because of stop start nature of penalties which stop the momentum and ebb and flow. Passion killer for the fan to be frank.

AFL - again is up tempo.....but lot more could discuss about AFL as also lived in Melbourne for many years. So have many sporting cultures to compare to - AFL definitely a religion in Melbourne as is soccer in UK. But don't want to digress to that as still believe need to get back to basics which is the product as that is what will drive fan appeal and participation - why because you can't disconnect fan appeal and participation - as more fans - more commercial opportunities - more incentive for best players to play rugby - more media exposure and more fans go to rugby - and so more want to play rugby as see their stars they want to be and exposed as much as league etc and part of the water cooler conversation or schoolyard conversation (in case of schools).

Chicken and egg. Get the product right - more fans - more media exposure - more conversations about rugby - more participants. Get it wrong you have no chance.

Rugby has needed an overhaul....and part of seed of change holding us back is how bureaucratic and slow world rugby governing bodies are to drive change and that pressures for change in other big rugby nations are not as great (re: England, France, NZ and SA compared to Australia). They still face same pressures from other codes but not at same pace as oz and hence creating less pressure for speed of change. This is where Australian Rugby has to push the change agenda harder by means I have outlined.

I read in an article an average of 10 minutes a game is spent on penalty kicks for goals. I want my 10 minutes back!

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Right. Leaving the money thing aside, because quite frankly it bores me:

The NRC is having a stellar year. It should be more available (FTA), and have a longer season. That will get the attention of the kiddies, and take rugby outside the comfort zone a little. Initiatives like the Pacific Islands Days is key as well, because especially in places like Western Sydney, it can be a really good, positive tool to keep people in the game.

With another two teams inside the next 5 years.

So, with a big pat on the shoulder to Premier Rugby for all its hard work, it is time we got a wriggle on, hmm?

For FTA to be even an option a number of the NRC franchises need to sit down together and work through what works and what doesn't in terms of getting people to the games.

I tend to think all the NRC franchises need to be working to make the kinds of crowds we saw at Concord and Ballymore (3,000+) the norm for all games. I don't think that would be overly ambitious for the quality we've seen this season and should see as it continues to grow.

I think double-headers are a big must. Would be a great addition to the competition.

I'd also like the season to both begin and end with rivalry rounds. Rays/Rams, City/Country, Spirit/Rising and Eagles/Vikings. Or at least start.

Another two teams would have to be sourced elsewhere. Hopefully we see the Fijian squad come online for next season. If that proves successful then talks should start with WR (World Rugby) to enter another Islander based squad.

If you go to 10 teams you could easily run a 9 week season plus finals. I think that would suit.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

A longer NRC is a good idea, it'd just require a bit of a more significant buy in from both Clubs and Super sides.

Play the first round robin through the last part of the Super Season overlapping with the June window, take a break for Super/Club Finals, then play the second round robin during the Rugby Championship.

Reckon that'd work fairly well. If you could get the buy in from both levels, that'd be even better than it is now for development and exposure, be better for late season match fitness for the other Super guys than playing club rugby on top of that.

Whille I wouldn't mind seeing the season extended I'd prefer it not to overlap with either Super Rugby or Club Rugby.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I agree with getting on FTA re: NRC. But What everyone is jumping to is that with a product at one level everyone will suddenly jump on. Too hard - make it easier by rolling out at other levels where much less financial risk to get exposure to new way of rugby created by change in points system where more points for tries and less (relatively) for penalty goals.

Can't get exposure via changes to super rugby and international as that involves others outside of Australia Rugby Administration, but can make changes at school and club level via NRC points system. Get the interest at that level to help transition and understanding/interest for expanded national long form competition.

The media exposure for rugby for making such a big change in points at school and club level would help for exposure for when make change to create expanded long form NRC professional competition say couple of years after introducing this to get lower financial risk exposure of new points system and what it does for rugby at club level etc.

Then when national domestic long form NRC competition created is connected to same points system at grass roots level and natural extension that able to market to generate fan appeal as well as participant appeal as you have the pathway to at least professional domestic comp level.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Prefer that ambition - extend to 10 teams with additional 2 world rugby PI team participants and extend from 7 to 9 round plus finals. Baby steps.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Dear Bill

Be brave - make a serious statement that Australian Rugby is changing and we are not waiting for the IRB to pull their finger out.

Push for changes to reduce penalty goals to 2 points at schools and club level. Roll this change out to all schools and clubs, with announcement this is the start of the seed of change to make rugby great and create a culture of attacking rugby for the fans. And that this is building on the great vision set out for the NRC and is an extension of this to create attacking rugby.

Outline how Australian Rugby will continue to push for these changes at super rugby and international rugby and is part of the new found type of rugby Wallabies and Oz super rugby players already embracing with an attacking ethos. You know usual speal to market what you can at super rugby and international level where have to play by others rules.

Thanks in advance Bill

Yours

Nutter

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Question: how do the Kiwis fit their club competitions in with NPC?

I've always assumed they finished up before the NPC.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

A longer NRC is a good idea, it'd just require a bit of a more significant buy in from both Clubs and Super sides.

Play the first round robin through the last part of the Super Season overlapping with the June window, take a break for Super/Club Finals, then play the second round robin during the Rugby Championship.

Reckon that'd work fairly well. If you could get the buy in from both levels, that'd be even better than it is now for development and exposure, be better for late season match fitness for the other Super guys than playing club rugby on top of that.

You'd have to ensure you could provide an argument to the clubs etc. that provides some kind of greater financial return. Otherwise I think it may be difficult to convince them to further relegate their traditional structures.

My question is, do we really need it to run that much longer? Would it benefit more from shifting it a little further back than forward as a means to get it out from underneath the the AFL and NRL finals?

There has been some suggestion that as part of the calendar reorganization that the June window may be eliminated to allow Super Rugby a clear run. This could allow for TRC to be brought forward a month as well. Start the NRC after TRC with all the best available talent present.

 

[barbarian]

Bingo WCR. For me that is the answer. Eliminate the June test window. It has three major benefits to Aussie rugby for me:

1. No break in Super Rugby, meaning the comp can flow normally and build momentum through the season.

2. We don't go into Bledisloe I cold. Instead we have two or three matches against easier opponents, so we can face the ABs with (hopefully) a few wins under our belt.

3. It allows the NRC to start earlier, and thus have a longer season. It would shorten the Club season a bit, but I can't see too many issues there.

I really can't see a downside. Having the June window as stand alone tests is kind of nice and gives those series added significance I suppose, but that isn't enough to outweigh the three benefits above.
.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Bingo WCR. For me that is the answer. Eliminate the June test window. It has three major benefits to Aussie rugby for me:

1. No break in Super Rugby, meaning the comp can flow normally and build momentum through the season.

2. We don't go into Bledisloe I cold. Instead we have two or three matches against easier opponents, so we can face the ABs with (hopefully) a few wins under our belt.

3. It allows the NRC to start earlier, and thus have a longer season. It would shorten the Club season a bit, but I can't see too many issues there.

I really can't see a downside. Having the June window as stand alone tests is kind of nice and gives those series added significance I suppose, but that isn't enough to outweigh the three benefits above.
.

I can defiantly see the benefits but are we rescheduling the tests against NH teams to somewhere else in the calendar?

The England matches had 120,000 spectators and well over 2m viewers. There's several million downsides to Oz Rugby to consider there.....

 

[barbarian]

Sorry didn't make that clear. June tests would be rescheduled for late July/early August, after Super Rugby finishes.

Think that may raise an issue with how it fits in the NH calendar, but I don't really care about them.
.

 

[Highlander35]

Fundamentally, the RFU and FFR have come out and said they're happy to do Six Nations Part 2 instead of the June and November windows.

Lucky for you blokes the Pro12 and Premiership are talking about deferring the season to align the end of the British Rugby Seasons and Super Rugby.