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Crusaders v Waratahs. Christchurch.

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C

chief

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Harfish said:
Ra6vF.jpg


That is all
Photo is inconclusive. The half back as a matter of fact has his hands on the ball during that sequence therefore Beale is not offside. Ball has left the ruck once half back has his hands on the ball. Sorry but maybe next time mate.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Harfish - there is no Waratahs player on their feet at the ruck, therefore the line you're drawing is meaningless. The offside line for the Tahs is basically a touch their side of halfway. Beale is onside. Photocopier fucked around with the ball, giving Beale time to pick his man.

Fire Joubert.
 

James Buchanan

Trevor Allan (34)
NTA said:
Harfish - there is no Waratahs player on their feet at the ruck, therefore the line you're drawing is meaningless. The offside line for the Tahs is basically a touch their side of halfway. Beale is onside. Photocopier fucked around with the ball, giving Beale time to pick his man.

Fire Joubert.

Likewise, I was going to say.. "I can draw a line a meter behind the last feet and show plenty of people offside too"

But you beat me to it :(
 

matty_k

Peter Johnson (47)
This falls into the the hindsight has 20/20 vision category.

Would the result of this game been any different if Palu wasn't on the field at all?
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Can we stop whinging about the ref, we lost the game because the Crusaders got better and better at the breakdown through the game, not because the ref decided Beale was offside.

Face it we were lucky as well as the 9 got 10 minutes off a dodgey call that benefited us.

The Tahs were diving in all over the shop & going off their feet to protect attacking ball, the Crusaders were driving over the top on their's and staying on their feet - that was the big difference, as they were getting to the next breakdown quicker and closed out the last 20 minutes.
 

Toddy

Chris McKivat (8)
NTA said:
Harfish - there is no Waratahs player on their feet at the ruck, therefore the line you're drawing is meaningless. The offside line for the Tahs is basically a touch their side of halfway. Beale is onside. Photocopier fucked around with the ball, giving Beale time to pick his man.

Fire Joubert.

Penalty for not staying on their feet then. :thumb
 

James Buchanan

Trevor Allan (34)
Toddy said:
Penalty for not staying on their feet then. :thumb

The Penalty is given for diving over the ball, which the players have not.

If they were tacklers, they have sufficiently rolled away.

Try again :thumb
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Can this be let go now please as FP said?

BTW, that picture explains exactly why a touchie would've called Beale offside.

Players on defence are taught to stand RELATIVE to the players either side. That's how refs and touchies judge offside in the middle of the park away from a ruck - by where the players next to them stand (apart from the cursory scan up and down the line). If you have one player a foot in front of the player to either side even if he's not offside (and I am not saying the Beale was or was not offside here, I wish to stay out of it) then the ref/touchie will tend to call the player standing a foot in front offside every time if he moves up quickly.

Don't think that coaches do not teach players to stand in a line defensively.
 

James Buchanan

Trevor Allan (34)
Ash and FP both make fair points.

Its over with now anyway, can't change it.

I'm just not a fan of people trying to interpret the rules to fit their needs, as has been done in a couple of occasions in this thread.
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Just saw the match. FUCK!

The referee, Beale intercept, and Crusaders try seem to have been discussed pretty thoroughly already, so I'll leave them alone.

Overall, it felt like lots of small missed opportunities added up to make one big missed opportunity. The Tahs got themselves into good positions and then the scrum or lineout or a bad pass let them down.

The performance of Burgess (and Holmes) and Halangahu had me dreaming of poaching Genia, and maybe Cooper, for next season. Burgess' passing was even worse than usual, and Mr Reliable Halangahu was, well, not at all reliable. The scrum was shakey, as was the lineout at times - I hope this was an aberration as they have been good most of the season. Much of the kicking was poor too.

Waugh was great. Beale looked brilliant. Barnes made more improvements again this week (he should be in top form for the end of season BBQ). Apart from a bit of a lack of fluency and width in the forward phase play, I thought the tactics were right. The execution was the part that was lacking.

The Crusaders were off their game, but the Waratahs are very good at dragging other teams down (I'm not entirely sure how they do it, but it is very handy when dealing with the likes of Dan Carter).

Palu's injury is a big worry. His hard yards will be missed, and I'm not sure who will replace them.

The season isn't over yet, but it will be a lot harder to win the comp now, the first big hurdle being the Brumbies.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
I finally got around to watching a replay last night. This was a very, very disappointing loss by the Tahs; they've now lost to the three leading contenders (Stormers, Bulls and Saders, admittedly all away) and on that count alone it's highly unlikely they'll win the whole shebang this year. My thoughts on the match:

1. Referee One of the things I dread as a referee is a mistake which affects a result. I've made heaps of mistakes in my 15 years whistling but none which have resulted in the wrong team winning. Thank you, O Great Rugby God. The two contentious instances on Saturday night DID affect the result: Beale's "offside" and the Saders' "try". Commentators and posters here have (correctly) rabbitted on about the Tahs' play in the latter stages not being good enough but they miss the point: the Saders' tactics would've been considerably different if they were trailing after Beale's try. Beale has questionably been called offside twice in crucial moments in matches in Christchurch, the 2008 final being the other. A forensic examination of the facts suggests one could mount a strong argument he was offside in neither. This is what shits me about prima donna referees, the propensity to go for the whistle rather than pause and get it right more often.

The Saders "try". If the dickhead TMO had've had his Law book to hand he would've noted Law 22.1 states:
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.
(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

My viewing of the incident showed the ball slipped from Fotu's right hand and he forced it with his forearm, ie, he wasn't holding it in either his hand/s or arm/s. He CAN use his forearm but the ball has to be on the ground first, it wasn't. This incident will be shown at many refs' courses in years to come and I'd wager the trainers will make the students carefully read their Law books, and theoretically rule "no try".

Apart from these two bloopers I though the ref allowed the Saders to go off their feet in attacking contact far too many times. Aren’t McCaw, the Saders and the ABs the masters at getting away with what they can get away with? Good luck to them. It’s up to referees (with George Gregan’s occasional help) to put a stop to their infringing.


2. Tahs’ tactics The Tahs have slowly played their way into some fluency in their back play with the inclusion of Horne and Beale over two stodges and Barnes’ glimmer of form. Add this development to Mitchell’s superb play all season and Hanger’s solid showing at five-eighth and Tahs’ supporters had reason to hope they could win games through playing enterprising rugby. But, no, we should’ve expected this glimmer to be nothing more than fool’s gold. When things got tight against the Saders in the second half they went back to their introverted game and tried to get past the Kiwis at the edge of the ruck, maul and tackle. I’ll repeat ad infinitum: commitment at the breakdown defines New Zealand rugby. To which I’ll add: Kiwis like to put their best athletes in the back row, not in the centres as we do.

On Saturday night the Tahs effectively lost the game as they had plenty of opportunities to punish the Saders in the second half but every time they got turnover pill in the last 15 minutes (what? five or six times) they either knocked it on or gave it back. Their skills under pressure simply weren’t good enough.

Which brings me to my last point.


3. Phil Waugh Phil played magnificently on Saturday night. He rolled back the years and some would say he bested St Richie the Invisible. A bit of background here: early last year one of my snouts at the Tahs casually let slip (over a few beers, surprisingly) Phil is a major determinant of the Tahs’ playing tactics, he loves a physical game and doesn’t want the ball too far away from him. Now this would explain a lot of things, the reluctance to use the backs the last few years, Link’s departure and snubbing by Phil after the 2008 final and the fact the last three years the Tahs have started each season with stodgy forwards rumbles. I’ve written elsewhere I reckon Phil’s too big and would be well advised to lose a few kg to help him get around the paddock in his old age. Over each of the last three seasons it would seem the Tahs’ hierarchy have pulled rank mid-term and insisted the backs be allowed into the game, after Link was given notice in 2008 and Louden was finally given rein to show his wares, last year when Beale was moved to inside centre for the SAf tour (and they won three out of three), and this year when Horne and Beale made the run on side in place of two stodges. Let me say here I think Carter’s a terrific club player and a very good Super sub, he’s just the man to stop the Tahs losing a game at the death if they’re in front but he’s not capable of winning a game from the kickoff. Getting back to last Saturday, when the pressure was on in the second half Waugh kept the ball close to the breakdown and had the rest of the forwards try to smash their way through the Saders’ close-in defence. Madness. The style of rugby Phil likes is capable of taking the Tahs only so far, it won’t get them into the frame to win a Super title.


4. The future Things look grim without Palu. The value of a big bruiser at number 8 was magnified when Cliffy went off and Waldrom came on. The way these two blokes look and play you’d reckon they were brothers! A fit Palu is essential for next year’s campaigns. But Cliffy aside the Tahs have developed some depth at 4, 5 and 6 with the improvement in Mowen, Douglas and Dennis over the last two years. The scrum should stay solid and I pray a prop, or two, puts his hand up. We can only hope Barnes returns to form, Mitchell stays in form and Horne stays fit. I’d also like to see Burgess recapture his helter-skelter service from scrums and rucks and I don’t mind if a few passes go astray, as long as they’re fast. In fact if the Tahs find themselves capable of playing an ensemble game an ageing Phil might have trouble fitting in.
 

MajorlyRagerly

Trevor Allan (34)
Question time

Kick chase from the 22... ball pops up in goal, attacking player divs on the ball his forearm touchs it in the air and sticks with it all the way down forcing it. Hands never have control. Just pure forearm on ball. Try or no try?

2nd thing... same situation but instead of forearm touching, hands get it and knock it forward... but then the forearm makes contact with it again on the way down all the way to the bottom.. Try or no try?

3rd thing... same situation as above, but instead of knocking it forward, he knocks it BACK... this time the ball pops up and as it does his forearm forces it down again.. Try or no try?

If your a fan watching on the attacking team here... which of the 3 would you expect to get awarded?
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Lindommer said:
3. Phil Waugh Phil played magnificently on Saturday night. He rolled back the years and some would say he bested St Richie the Invisible. A bit of background here: one of my snouts at the Tahs casually let slip (over a few beers, surprisingly) early last year Phil is a major determinant of the Tahs’ playing tactics, he loves a physical game and doesn’t want the ball too far away from him. Now this would explain a lot of things, the reluctance to use the backs the last few years, Link’s departure and snubbing by Phil after the 2008 final and the fact the last three seasons the Tahs have started with stodgy forwards rumbles. Now I’ve written elsewhere I reckon Phil’s too big and may be well advised to lose a few kg to help him get around the paddock in his old age. Over each of the last three seasons it would seem the Tahs’ hierarchy have pulled rank mid-term and insisted the backs be allowed into the game..<snip>..The style of rugby Phil likes is capable of taking the Tahs only so far, it won’t get them into the frame to win a Super title.

That's worth a front page article.

I've long held that theory that the much criticised Tahs' conservative tactics are due to Waugh's influence and not the coaching staff. Waugh just can't keep up with a high tempo game and ironically is sabotaging the Tahs' fortunes. Fascinating dilemma for the Tahs' management.

Still mystified why the Tahs would let the apparent openside heir Beau Robinson go.
 

James Buchanan

Trevor Allan (34)
naza said:
That's worth a front page article.

I've long held that theory that the much criticised Tahs' conservative tactics are due to Waugh's influence and not the coaching staff. Waugh just can't keep up with a high tempo game and ironically is sabotaging the Tahs' fortunes. Fascinating dilemma for the Tahs' management.

Still mystified why the Tahs would let the apparent openside heir Beau Robinson go.

I've got no reason to believe this, but perhaps the reasons are the one and the same.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
James Buchanan said:
naza said:
That's worth a front page article.

I've long held that theory that the much criticised Tahs' conservative tactics are due to Waugh's influence and not the coaching staff. Waugh just can't keep up with a high tempo game and ironically is sabotaging the Tahs' fortunes. Fascinating dilemma for the Tahs' management.

Still mystified why the Tahs would let the apparent openside heir Beau Robinson go.

I've got no reason to believe this, but perhaps the reasons are the one and the same.

Robinson didn't get on the bench last season (they used a tall 6/8 from the bench) as Waugh will play for 80 minutes and can expected to do so far at least another year. So I guess the thought was to bring someone in, a bit younger, who will be ready as Waugh finishes.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
there must be something with robinson though, lets face it, the reds have needed an aussie 7, they only resigned braid this year after he failed to meet his european deadline to move on, they didnt sign beau, melbourne come in, they didnt sign beau, smith leaves, there is no mention of beau at the brumbies, he doesnt seem to be on anyones radar dispite the fact he seems to be a class player, there must be something they dont rate about him.
 

topo

Cyril Towers (30)
I think he was a fairly loose rig in his younger days and had a few off field behaviour problems. He certainly burned some bridges when he was at Norths just out of school. But I haven't heard anything bad enough to scare everyone off. It's a mystery.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
To be honest, Robinson a decent enough player but I think that Braid has been better for the Reds this year than Robinson could have been.
 
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