Criticism of Elsom

[Spook]

So then it is meaningless to compare performance of any forwards in different positions?

Between front row and back row, yes. You think a hookers tackle count should be similar to a Flankers?

Of course not but in terms of offloads, number of runs, tackles, busted tackles, lack of missed tackles, etc Elsom still does more than other backrow forward in the country. You made me point. Scotty was saying Elsom wasn't in the top 6 players in the country compared with a number of backs and forwards.

 

[Spook]

i'd like to know rockys metres gained compared to drew mitchells cos i think it would show mitchell is a better player than drew when it comes to running with the pill.

Drew is stilly a liability in defense. He misses shit loads of tackles.

 

[Gagger]

Not disagreeing on Elsom being underestimated, just on comparing stats across positions.

As for top performer, I haven't checked in the last few weeks but surely Hodgson is still pumping good numbers?

 

[Spook]

Hodgson is a machine. He has a massive engine. He wouldn't bust as many tackles as Elsom though, misses more and he is not an offloader nor a lineout expert. Hodgson does do more running and tackling in general though. Some amazing figures for those.

TPN has been v good but Moore tends to have a higher work rate.

 

[Scotty]

Of course not but in terms of offloads, number of runs, tackles, busted tackles, lack of missed tackles, etc Elsom still does more than other backrow forward in the country. You made me point. Scotty was saying Elsom wasn't in the top 6 players in the country compared with a number of backs and forwards.

Yep, and I stand by that. He isn't currently in my top 5 or 6. I did say he is easily my top No. 6 though.

I guess I have two points:

1. The Irish hype was over the top
2. His performances for the Brumbies have been up and down, particularly when compared to others.

 

[Langthorne]

I don't think Elsom has been widely criticised - maybe just on the occassions he has had a below average game (the Brumbies have every chance of making the finals now, but there were some dark days earlier in the season). My memory of the G&GR player of the match points is that he has featured pretty often.

The main discussion about Elsom has been whether (although he is clearly the 1st choice 6) he could play at number 8 in place of the injured Palu, as there is better depth at 6 than at 8 for the Wallabies...so in effect many people (me included) think that in the abscence of Palu, Elsom is the best option for two positions (6 and 8).

As for comparing TPN and Elsom - I don't think so. The reason TPN has been praised so widely is that he does all the stuff you mention whilst playing at hooker (and he doesn't 'tackle' - he smashes suckas, also his runs are almost always into heavy defence). For me they are the first choice for their positions.

Moore had an excellent game against the Highlanders, and he has been very good for most of the season, but the only area in which he is ahead of TPN is line out throwing (and that is only just). I am very happy that the Wallabies have such talent to choose from (and before anyone even suggests it - S Fainga'a is no where near these guys, but maybe in time he will be).

 

[Scotty]

S Finger is now where near, and I doubt he ever will be anywhere near Moore and TPN, but he has done a good job for the Reds this year, and has shown marked improvement.

 

[Ruggo]

Fainga'a offers a different style to the other two. Not as physical as moore but a shit load more mobile around the park and very quick on the ball. He compliments the Reds style very well. He probably has not staked his claim yet but watch out.

 

[Scotty]

I doubt very much that he is more mobile than the other two. In fact I'm sure he would be the slowest of the three, with TPN leading by a fair margin.

 

[naza]

Elsom has always been overrated. He has a conspicuous, red cordial style of play that mediocre rugby minds confuse with actual productive work.

He's benefited from a lack of contenders @ 6. Even now what do we have - Mumm, a lock, Hodgson a blown up openside, and a raw Higginbotham.

We need a Kieran Read type at 6. Hard, direct, uncompromising, dedicated to winning the contact zones. Instead we get a sideways running seagull who falls off tackles.

 

[Pfitzy]

compared to drew mitchells cos i think it would show mitchell is a better player than drew

He's so good he's better than himself old Shmoo!

 

[Ishmael]

Elsom has always been overrated. He has a conspicuous, red cordial style of play that mediocre rugby minds confuse with actual productive work.

He's benefited from a lack of contenders @ 6. Even now what do we have - Mumm, a lock, Hodgson a blown up openside, and a raw Higginbotham.

We need a Kieran Read type at 6. Hard, direct, uncompromising, dedicated to winning the contact zones. Instead we get a sideways running seagull who falls off tackles.

I disagree. He certainly does some flashy stuff but as those stats show, he's making plenty of tackles and I'm sure if you could find some stats on the amount of rucks he's hitting he'd be right up there for that too. That's why he's such a great player. He does the hard yards and still has energy to make the big plays.

 

[Pfitzy]

Ish - you can't convince naz. He's always right that there is some other player playing for some other club who is somehow better than whatever we've got. Leave the poor codmouthed bugger alone, for all our sakes.

 

[RugbyReg]

I disagree. He certainly does some flashy stuff but as those stats show, he's making plenty of tackles and I'm sure if you could find some stats on the amount of rucks he's hitting he'd be right up there for that too. That's why he's such a great player. He does the hard yards and still has energy to make the big plays.

His own = 156 (ave 14.18 per game)
Counter Rucking = 40 (ave 3.64 per game)

As a comparison:

Hodgo averages 21.50 and 11.33
Mowen averages 15.17 and 4.42
Mumm averages 20.6 and 3.6
TPN averages 17.64 and 3.73
Higgers averages 20.25 and 4.50

 

[Moses]

Do the stats take missed games into account?

 

[Lee Grant]

One would laugh about folks who deride the abilities of top players except that they are so serious about it.

Rocky was criticised before he went to Leinster and when he returned he was under the pump. Palu has been given the same treatment in the past and you had to scratch your head because players kept voting him the best in their team.

A lot of stats are not useful. I remember once when Oz cricket was in extremis and Border was doing his bit. His batting average wobbled in one series and critics were carping. Using the batting average of Border to judge his value to Australian cricket in those years was as useless as judging Mozart's talent by adding up the notes in the Marriage Of Figaro and dividing by 4.

But I digress. If a bloke misses 8 tackles every game it would grab my attention but I'd like to know how long a guy spends on the ground instead of getting up so his team isn't a man short; how many times did he back a player up whether he got the ball passed to him or not; how many times did a player pass the ball a step too late or too early; with what degree of ferocity did he tackle etc etc.

You can't get these things from stats.

I liked a remark that Deans made about watching players away from the ball. I have mentioned before that I like to do that, sometimes at the ground but a lot watching replays. You can see things like Cross dozing off when the Crusaders scrummie darted through to score at the beginning of the game. Had he not done so and passed it instead, Cross should have got a black mark regardless.

What's that got to do with Rocky? I have no clue. I'm typing this watching the T20 and had to do something else. But I don't judge a player too much on stats. I'm more like that shonky solicitor in "The Castle": I go with the vibe.

 

[DPK]

Dennis Denuto is not a shonk. :lmao:

 

[Jethro Tah]

Rocky is doing just fine and will walk into the Deans' first 15. But i think his game suffered a little when he was captain. He is certainly a lead by example captain and is good at the PR stuff off the field but I just can't picture him shouting at the other players under the goal posts to try and rev them up for a last ditch effort to win a game.

On a LG digression, what about a discussion on the likely captain & vc? Genia, Mumm or even Pocock?

 

[Ruggo]

Great post Lee and I agree with everything you say. Ironically I think you have just made a great case for Higgers.

We build players up to impossible expectations in Australia and then bag them when they don't meet that standard. Rocky has been a victim of this. He was brought back to Australia as if he was some sort of messiah when all he is, is another talanted footballer. This burdon is to much for one mere mortal. Beale is a classic example of this. How can a talented kid still in school be expected to be the savour to all the Tahs on field problems. It appears to me that he is only just getting over all that crap layed on him.

 

[RugbyReg]

Do the stats take missed games into account?

the average one does. Total over games played.