Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Western Raptors play under the Penrith District barrier now IIRC, but hail from Blacktown (ish) area.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

A little easier than expected.
Using figures from the 2012 Sydney Juniors Annual report (available off their web site).
Note that they mention a Friday night competition in 2012 but do not give any breakdown of the teams in that competition.
For comparison purposes, I have summariesd the numbers of teams into Sunday and Non Sunday competitions below.

Under 10
Not Sunday - 2011 = 22, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 19
Sunday - 2011 = 56, 2012 = 65, 2013 = 68
Total - 2011 = 78, 2012 = 82, 2013 = 87

Under 11
Not Sunday - 2011 = 9, 2012 = 16, 2013 = 18
Sunday - 2011 = 61, 2012 = 63, 2013 = 63
Total - 2011 = 70, 2012 = 79, 2013 = 81

Under 12
Not Sunday - 2011 = 5, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 8
Sunday - 2011 = 42, 2012 = 57, 2013 = 54
Total - 2011 = 47, 2012 = 74, 2013 = 62

Under 13
Not Sunday - 2011 = 6, 2012 = 11, 2013 = 3
Sunday - 2011 = 49, 2012 = 42, 2013 = 46
Total - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 53, 2013 = 49

Under 14
Not Sunday - 2011 = 7, 2012 = 9, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 38, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 39
Total - 2011 = 45, 2012 = 48, 2013 = 39

Under 15
Not Sunday - 2011 = 2, 2012 = 4, 2013 = 5
Sunday - 2011 = 32, 2012 = 35, 2013 = 39
Total - 2011 = 34, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 44

Under 16
Not Sunday - 2011 = 3, 2012 = 7, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 24, 2012 = 24, 2013 = 21
Total - 2011 = 27, 2012 = 31, 2013 = 13

Open
Not Sunday - 2011 = 1, 2012 = 6, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 12, 2012 = 22, 2013 = 13
Total - 2011 = 13, 2012 = 28, 2013 = 13

All Grades (U10 - Open)
Not Sunday - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 87, 2013 = 53
Sunday - 2011 = 314, 2012 = 347, 2013 = 343
Total - 2011 = 369, 2012 = 434, 2013 = 396

Summary:
Numbers are down on last year but up on previous years overall.
Some age groups and geographic areas should be of concern.


Comment/Hobby Horses:
Under 16
How can Sydney Juniors justify a seat at the Under 16 National Competition with 13 teams to choose from?
Is it time for NSW 1, NSW 2 and Combined States?
Get rid of the opportunity for private school kids that do not play in the village club competitions but are magically eligible due to a loophole to turn up at Juniors State champs to get two selection chances in front of the Selectors. To earn two bites at the cherry in front of the selectors, play BOTH Club and School. This will lift the overall standard of club footy, and the numbers participating.

With only 8 U16 teams in A grade, the State Championships are on nearly every weekend in this grade, and you would have to be unlucky to miss out on a gig in one of the 3 Zone squads of 23 and Barbarians squad for the Regional Carnival (If they intend to do things as they have always done).

Under 17
The SJRU Under 17 selection will be an interesting one. This feeds into the NSW JRU U17 team for the AJRU National U17 championship.
13 teams in the Open (under 18) grade to choose from, with some of those players being Under 18 and therefore ineligible for U17 selection.

The Juniors Pathway to Gold looks to be like a walking track through the Blue Mountains National Park as opposed to the Yellow Brick Road from the Wizard of Oz.

How many of our younger athletes have abandoned the Juniors competition for Colts? There are quite a number that I know of who are eligible to play U17 and U18 juniors who have made the early step up to Colts. Take a quick scan through the team lists published in Rugby News ($5.00 at your local Shute Sheild oval on Saturdays), or on the NSW RU web site. This exodus of talent is a vote of no confidence in the Juniors Village club model from the players (and parents) and should be looked at seriously by the games administrators.

We do not have sufficient volunteer administrative talent, and resources in Heavensgame grass roots to support inefficient and Quixotic WII-FM practices.

Time to wake up and get smart.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...ior-rugby-union-2013.12489/page-4#post-470283

I posted the above last April. Very little seems to have changed, but reposted here for food for thought. There are some very good and rather prophetic posts back in that thread if you have some spare time.

Buddha doesn't have the 2014 draw up, so I can't do the team numbers for Season 2014.
It will be very interesting to see what the numbers say this year when the draw is up.

 

[Gary Owen III]

Where are the western rapters from ?

Rooty Hill

 

[Fat Cat]

So not too far away from Mosman or Hunters Hill, fair enough.

 

[10to12]

10to12 - that I don't know. I just see that they have nominated two teams also.


Apparently of the Norths Rep U15 team last year 13 or 14 (of the 23) are not returning or have joined other clubs (Randwick and Raptors). So might be some soaking going on there also.

GO111 Do you know whats happening in the Gordon district. Are they keeping their teams together in the 16As age group

 

[Gary Owen III]

Fat Cat suggested in post #518 that one Gordon club side may not go the distance.

According to the nominations they have four sides entering teams Wahroonga (A), Lane Cove (B), Chatswood (A) and Lindfield (C).

There are only 6 teams in the A and B comps - so if this does happen to one of these teams it will have a major impact on the club comp.

 

[10to12]

10to12 - that I don't know. I just see that they have nominated two teams also.


Apparently of the Norths Rep U15 team last year 13 or 14 (of the 23) are not returning or have joined other clubs (Randwick and Raptors). So might be some soaking going on there also.

GO111 My reference to soaking refers to a district creating a team from the remaining players . It is about a team cobbled together so that each club with only a few players rather than folding gives the boys a game each week. My assumption is this is the case down at the beaches.
This is not the case as I understand it in the combining of the Norths two A teams. They both have the numbers to field stand alone teams which I thought the SJRU was insisting on. I feel you are being disingenuous in this. By the way are you sure your a Gordon follower. You seem to know a lot about other teams (norths) but not the Goss at Gordon.

 

[Gary Owen III]

GO111 My reference to soaking refers to a district creating a team from the remaining players . It is about a team cobbled together so that each club with only a few players rather than folding gives the boys a game each week. My assumption is this is the case down at the beaches.
This is not the case as I understand it in the combining of the Norths two A teams. They both have the numbers to field stand alone teams which I thought the SJRU was insisting on. I feel you are being disingenuous in this. By the way are you sure your a Gordon follower. You seem to know a lot about other teams (norths) but not the Goss at Gordon.

10to12 - not being disingenuous at all, the Norths guys tell me HH couldn't form a team on own. And yes i have asked a lot of questions of the people i know there.
As for Gordon - i prefer not to fan the flames on that topic. Thus why i quoted FC. Needless to say i think he is correct.

 

[tavytoo]

Its easy for you sydney based green and goldies to make comments on what is good for the game when you only have to travel across one or 2 suburbs to play. Illawarra zone is getting too big geographically . few parents want to drive campbelltown to nowra on a sunday morning let alone adding southern districts into the mix. no one ever consults with the membership when these decisions are made. those sort of distances are fine for rep games but for your average clubbie who just wants a good run out on the local club paddock its too much travel and effort

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Its easy for you sydney based green and goldies to make comments on what is good for the game when you only have to travel across one or 2 suburbs to play. Illawarra zone is getting too big geographically . few parents want to drive campbelltown to nowra on a sunday morning let alone adding southern districts into the mix. no one ever consults with the membership when these decisions are made. those sort of distances are fine for rep games but for your average clubbie who just wants a good run out on the local club paddock its too much travel and effort

don't be too dismissive of the travelling times - they may be the same!

 

[tavytoo]

don't be too dismissive of the travelling times - they may be the same!

2 hours each way and barely enough players to make a team whether own club or a barbarian side

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Well I have spent an hour and a quarter and arrived to find a forfeit.
Would have mad sense to base the EASTS/Country NRC team somewhere like C'town to generate a bit if interest.

 

[tavytoo]

Well I have spent an hour and a quarter and arrived to find a forfeit.
Would have mad sense to base the EASTS/Country NRC team somewhere like C'town to generate a bit if interest.

explains the decline in participation in the older age groups and the drift to league and soccer who have the numbers to keep sport participation local and more consistent

 

[Quick Hands]

I was at a party last night where some of the issues discussed on this thread were front and centre. The demographic of the party was late 40 to mid fifties and all of the blokes at the party had played village club rugby in the Manly area all those years ago (on Saturdays). Our kids would range from 8-18.

As an advocate of returning village club rugby to Saturday, even I was surprised by the hostility towards Sunday club rugby. Even more hostility was directed at the Sydney wide nature of the competitions, which leads to 10 and 11 year old D level players travelling all over Sydney to play at 8.30 on a Sunday morning.

I'm afraid that the news for rugby administrators is not good and that the people have voted with their feet. Around 80% of the kids of those rugby orientated dads didn't play village club rugby. Most played soccer or league and some boys only played Saturday rugby at school. We're talking about the participation level players mainly, but there's quite a few talented boys playing league, who watch the Marlins every Saturday, but don't play junior rugby.

Interestingly no-one whose kid played soccer raised the mumsie thinks rugby is too rough excuse. The kids played with their mates in a local competition.

I'll summarise the conversations:

When we played the furthest we had to travel was St Ives, surely there are enough teams in the north of Sydney to play teams which are reasonably local.

We spent one year taking our son to Blue Mountains, Sylvania and Dural and he likes rugby, but he's not that good. He now plays league because all the matches are on the northern beaches and are on Saturdays until 15s.

We'd prefer our son to be playing rugby, but the travel and the Sunday mornings are a killer, so he plays league which is on a Saturday and all the games are local.

He plays rugby at school on a Saturday and that's enough or he plays rugby at school on Saturday and plays league with his mates. The travel in junior rugby isn't worth it - he's never going to be a Wallaby

People may scoff at the reasons, but as I always say: the customer is always right.

Rugby seems to have fallen for the notion that every kid who laces up a boot wants to play for Australia and therefore needs an elite pathway to enjoy playing the game. In fact, the reverse is true, most of them just want to run around with their mates and have fun.

The choices are:

Soccer from 6s to 18s, Saturday competition and never have to leave the northern beaches

League from 6s to 14s, Saturdays never leave the northern beaches and 16s up to North Sydney area as well

Rugby from 10s up, Sundays and you could travel anywhere from Newport to Sylvania, to Dural to Blue Mountains

We're the ones who aren't catering to our customers and we're the ones who are losing players and teams.

Note: Manly Roos will field 1 standalone team past 12s this year. They have a 15s team playing in a lower division. In all other ages they are in joint ventures with Raiders and Harbord - so all three clubs are in a similar position and this is an area in which rugby is strong.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

@Quick Hands, great poll results, probably replicated at various footy gatherings around the place.

Was the question asked, "If Rugby was available on Saturday mornings, would the boys register for rugby?" or "How far (timewise rather than distance) do you think is reasonable to travel for a game of kids footy?"

Rugby seems to have fallen for the notion that every kid who laces up a boot wants to play for Australia and therefore needs an elite pathway to enjoy playing the game. In fact, the reverse is true, most of them just want to run around with their mates and have fun.

Spot on!!

Build the base of the pyramid, and someone will manufacture a pointy bit. Do not focus on the pointy bit, because there may not be a base for the pointy bit to go on.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I was at a party last night where some of the issues discussed on this thread were front and centre. The demographic of the party was late 40 to mid fifties and all of the blokes at the party had played village club rugby in the Manly area all those years ago (on Saturdays). Our kids would range from 8-18.

As an advocate of returning village club rugby to Saturday, even I was surprised by the hostility towards Sunday club rugby. Even more hostility was directed at the Sydney wide nature of the competitions, which leads to 10 and 11 year old D level players travelling all over Sydney to play at 8.30 on a Sunday morning.

I'm afraid that the news for rugby administrators is not good and that the people have voted with their feet. Around 80% of the kids of those rugby orientated dads didn't play village club rugby. Most played soccer or league and some boys only played Saturday rugby at school. We're talking about the participation level players mainly, but there's quite a few talented boys playing league, who watch the Marlins every Saturday, but don't play junior rugby.

Interestingly no-one whose kid played soccer raised the mumsie thinks rugby is too rough excuse. The kids played with their mates in a local competition.

I'll summarise the conversations:

When we played the furthest we had to travel was St Ives, surely there are enough teams in the north of Sydney to play teams which are reasonably local.

We spent one year taking our son to Blue Mountains, Sylvania and Dural and he likes rugby, but he's not that good. He now plays league because all the matches are on the northern beaches and are on Saturdays until 15s.

We'd prefer our son to be playing rugby, but the travel and the Sunday mornings are a killer, so he plays league which is on a Saturday and all the games are local.

He plays rugby at school on a Saturday and that's enough or he plays rugby at school on Saturday and plays league with his mates. The travel in junior rugby isn't worth it - he's never going to be a Wallaby

People may scoff at the reasons, but as I always say: the customer is always right.

Rugby seems to have fallen for the notion that every kid who laces up a boot wants to play for Australia and therefore needs an elite pathway to enjoy playing the game. In fact, the reverse is true, most of them just want to run around with their mates and have fun.

The choices are:

Soccer from 6s to 18s, Saturday competition and never have to leave the northern beaches

League from 6s to 14s, Saturdays never leave the northern beaches and 16s up to North Sydney area as well

Rugby from 10s up, Sundays and you could travel anywhere from Newport to Sylvania, to Dural to Blue Mountains

We're the ones who aren't catering to our customers and we're the ones who are losing players and teams.

Note: Manly Roos will field 1 standalone team past 12s this year. They have a 15s team playing in a lower division. In all other ages they are in joint ventures with Raiders and Harbord - so all three clubs are in a similar position and this is an area in which rugby is strong.

I've been to the same party

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Build the base of the pyramid, and someone will manufacture a pointy bit. Do not focus on the pointy bit, because there may not be a base for the pointy bit to go on.

Who should be building the base?
View may differ but I'd love the see what people see as the alternatives.
Mine is its an ARU job and that is partly because despite the fact that these parents think that their sons aged between 8 and 18 are never going to be Wallabies the truth is you never know and so the answer is our elite adult levels will be better if we cater to the most players of whatever ability that we can possibly cater to.
The rest will take care of itself.
At the moment we are trying to skim the cream from a churn with a hole in it.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

1st step in building the base would be to learn how to count properly and honestly.

While the Shiraz swillers are sitting back in their leather chairs in the board room looking at pretty coloured graphs showing massive and sustained increases in "participation" numbers, what are they going to do?

 

[Fat Cat]

we need to put together the blue print to fix things in Sydney get all the village club presidents on board and partition the SJRU.

 

[Fat Cat]

SATURDAY SEVENS



All Clubs should have received an information letter and an entry form for the Saturday Sevens Competition to be run at St Lukes, Concord.

This is an effort to promote Rugby to those not currently playing in an organised school game. We desperately need to encourage “new blood” to the game and ALL Clubs must assist.

I expect at least one team from each District to enter And some Clubs should be able to furnish multiple teams!!!



All Clubs need to look at the schools their players attend and get the attached flyer to the High schools of your players!!!!

This came out on an email from the SJRU