Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[S'UP]

There is a thousand questions and very few answer's, (not a poke at anyone on this thread) who would you go to, to get the answer's? Club? Districts? SJRU? NSWRU? ARU? who is actually responsible? Who is the person who has the delelopment of Junior rugby in this country let alone in this state? what is there view and why have I never heard from him/her? It's great to have a HPU but when we have no one to get HP out of what do we do then. Was at JGC training speaking to the Dad's and the comment from a couple was "my boy is in the Harold Matthew's train on team, he is only doing this (JGC) as a fall back, he likes rugby but there is more opportunity in league, he goes the a state sports high and they are only allowed to play league so it's hard".
It's all very frustrating.

 

[Runner]

St Augustine's for one. In 2000 their teams played village club rugby (only 1 team per age group). Warringah JRU kicked them out in about 2003/2004 and they went into the ISA. According to the website, the ISA only started in 1990 and probably took a few years to really get going. http://www.isa.nsw.edu.au/ISA-history.html

It's just one of the issues, the collapse of rugby in CHS schools is probably more significant, along with rugby not following the expansion of Sydney for at least the last 40 years. There's just less boys playing these days in traditional rugby areas and this decline has not been offset by growth in players in non-traditional rugby areas.

My reading of the minute from the SJRU meeting is that we've past crisis point and are almost at the point of no return. How is the game going to cater for boys not attending GPS/CAS/ISA schools? If they can't, rugby will just shrink even further. The Dept of Education don't care, they have no responsibility to promote rugby in their schools. Often the best player at a state school is offered a GPS scholarship and they are usually the driving personality in getting others to play so their departure is more than 1 player. It's also a difficult game to coach and ensure player safety at that level. As long as their students are playing some sport, they don't care. Touch football, soccer and even league are easier for them to run.

I wish I had the answers.

 

[Runner]

In light of where Auggies is now perhaps abit short sighted of the local administrators.

The Dept school schools is a really important point. Look at the competitions like the Waratah shield etc and you see less gov't school involvement. The complexity of teaching the game as well as child protection issues, mums opinions have lead many to so its all too hard.

The private schools have more of a committment to rugby and have staff trained and it is part of their co-curricular.

 

[Oldpig]

To add even more complexity to this post, CAS schools will be introducing Aussie Rules to the sporting arena in 2014. This will compete with both rugby & that sissy game played with a round ball... just having some fun so don't get to upset with me. Seems the pie is getting even smaller, not sure how this will impact on rugby, but it going to in the long term.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

To add even more complexity to this post, CAS schools will be introducing Aussie Rules to the sporting arena in 2014. This will compete with both rugby & that sissy game played with a round ball. just having some fun so don't get to upset with me. Seems the pie is getting even smaller, not sure how this will impact on rugby, but it going to in the long term.

Are all schools playing?
There were reports of the AFL supplying coaches, equipment (tight shorts, mullets and big white flags) and grounds to Trinity 18(?) months ago - is this an expansion of that scheme?

 

[Gary Owen III]

Are all schools playing?
There were reports of the AFL supplying coaches, equipment (tight shorts, mullets and big white flags) and grounds to Trinity 18(?) months ago - is this an expansion of that scheme?

And I don't believe it is limited to the CAS. I have heard in the GPS system that both Shore and Newington have sent letters out to their year 7 and 8 students this year enquiring as to interest in playing AFL next season. With Riverview already playing AFL this could be another hurdle for junior rugby to cope with.

 

[Oldpig]

IS
Apparently all CAS schools have now signed up to a competition run by the AFL, Barker being the last to give in. I believe it will start with 2 teams in the 7/8yr group & 2 teams in the 9/10yr group. Training will be on school grounds and games played at the AFL centre at Macquarie Uni. I did hear from a mate that the GPS were doing the same, maybe combining to form a larger competition. If this does happen the AFL will have done what the CAS & GPS haven't been able to do in 50yrs by getting both groups together on the same playing field on Saturdays.
From the conversations I have had there is a concern among the rugby coaching staff that the introduction of AFL as a winter sport will dilute the player stock even further and this will limit some schools to only fielding 1st, 2nd & 3rd's in opens rugby in the not to distant future. It is believed it will have a more immediate impact on the middle school player numbers, particularly in the 15/16 age group.
While I believe there will always be a hard core group of boys at every school to continue the rugby tradition, the boys who make up the lower order may be swayed into playing AFL if it means playing up a few rungs. Think about it, Johnny might only make the 4th's or 5th's in rugby, bit could get into the 1st's or 2nd's in AFL.
I don't think this is a passing fad & the ARU does need to pay some attention to what the AFL are doing to make sure there is a healthy stock of boys to continue the tradition. This is not just limited to the private schools either as we all know how well the AFL have been targeting the local communities and growing their base over the last 5yrs at the expense of the village club environment.

 

[Joe King]

I dont buy this explanation.
There have been private schools in the Northern Zone since 1896 (at least).
Their 1st XVs have just about always played at 3:15pm on Saturday and formerly (but not so much lately) attendance for some of these schools at 1st XV games was compulsory for all students.
I don't think the commitments have changed.
There are more options: kids can do fencing, for instance. If they fence they are not going to play rugby for a local club team. The challenges to rugby come not only from our traditional competitors in Loig, AFL and soccer and we need to realise that.
As a community rugby has wholly failed to adapt to changes in our society and is becoming marginalised in its grass roots at the speed of light.
News from another thread that the ARU has suggested that there be only one pathway running through JGC - though likely to be opposed by the schools - is absolutely essential to addressing the declining popularity of the game.

G'day IS, could you elaborate on how it would help to solve the problem? I asked a similar question to S'UP on the other thread.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

G'day IS, could you elaborate on how it would help to solve the problem? I asked a similar question to S'UP on the other thread.

Any given child needs to know what the pathway is, who else is on it and what he (or she) has to do to stay on it, where it leads.
At the moment, to take U16s in Sydney: at the highest level you can play for NSW Schools or Sydney Juniors. To get to NSW schools you have to go through your school association (ISA, CAS, CHS etc).
Each association has differing standards from year to year. There is no official GPS U16 team.
To get to Sydney you have to play Club and probably reps.
A lot of kids get 2 bites at the cherry by playing for their school association and then playing on the June long weekend in club reps.
Who knows if the NSW Schools fullback ever played with or against the Sydney fullback or if there's a kid who got missed because his school is unfashionable within its association, or he wasn't nominated or he plays for a club that doesn't have a rep team.
And that's just the issues I came up with in a a stream of conscience.

 

[RugbyReg]

There is a thousand questions and very few answer's, (not a poke at anyone on this thread) who would you go to, to get the answer's? Club? Districts? SJRU? NSWRU? ARU? who is actually responsible? Who is the person who has the delelopment of Junior rugby in this country let alone in this state? what is there view and why have I never heard from him/her? It's great to have a HPU but when we have no one to get HP out of what do we do then. Was at JGC training speaking to the Dad's and the comment from a couple was "my boy is in the Harold Matthew's train on team, he is only doing this (JGC) as a fall back, he likes rugby but there is more opportunity in league, he goes the a state sports high and they are only allowed to play league so it's hard".
It's all very frustrating.

I'd start with the Australian Sports Commission to determine if this is a rugby only issue. I know there has been examples of it in QLD too. And I suspect that it is now a rugby only concern.

 

[Top Cat]

IS
I don't think this is a passing fad & the ARU does need to pay some attention to what the AFL are doing to make sure there is a healthy stock of boys to continue the tradition. This is not just limited to the private schools either as we all know how well the AFL have been targeting the local communities and growing their base over the last 5yrs at the expense of the village club environment.

You are correct Oldpig.

AFL is certainly not a passing fad and as for targeting communities for the last 5 years, it has been going on much longer than that. My boys were involved in AFL back 11 years ago and only gave up last year because they had so much involvement in Union but during that time I could see what was happening. Try telling other people how AFL was on the rise and they would laugh at you. I recall, I think it was Steve Mortimer, on the Footy Show years back saying how AFL was displacing league and they didn’t want to listen to him as they were more interested in discussing the salary cap. Another well known player, can’t remember his name, wrote an article for one of the Sunday papers saying how the league posts were being torn out down in the Southern Highlands and AFL posts were being installed. The AFL administration is not just looking ahead one or two years they are looking ahead to 20 years in the future.

My sons played alongside a young lad who at 16 is now playing in the Sydney Swans reserve side. He and a number of others were under the Swans radar for a number of years before that. My boys had the opportunity to go to the Sydney trials but chose union instead. The local AFL club, although 2 1/2 hours drive from Sydney, is a feeder club for the Sydney Swans and there have been 4 players to my knowledge that have graduated from the club to play with the Swans. I do not know the exact details but the juniors clubs receive an annual amount for any player that has come through their club to play Premiership AFL. Also, every year all players go back to their original clubs to do a promotion of the game within the district. This includes all district clubs and schools. There is also a clear pathway if you play AFL and I certainly haven’t seen any of the nepotism that exists in Union.

The decline in union numbers is not limited to just Sydney. The ARU have a product but sadly that product is not being marketed and sold very well. They certainly need to look at what the AFL are undertaking and follow their lead in promoting and developing the game for the future.
It wasn’t that long ago that there were calls to axe Sydney University from the Sydney competition but look at them now. Recently the Hunter RU took a vote on whether to axe two teams out of the local competition, one of those teams have the most juniors registered on their books within the district. Club officials had worked tirelessly over the years to develop the junior club within a RL heartland and if the senior team had been axed then upcoming players would have had to travel in 59km just to train and play in the Newcastle competition.

And we all thought this was about developing and promoting the game!

 

[mous]

Any given child needs to know what the pathway is, who else is on it and what he (or she) has to do to stay on it, where it leads.
At the moment, to take U16s in Sydney: at the highest level you can play for NSW Schools or Sydney Juniors. To get to NSW schools you have to go through your school association (ISA, CAS, CHS etc).
Each association has differing standards from year to year. There is no official GPS U16 team.
To get to Sydney you have to play Club and probably reps.
A lot of kids get 2 bites at the cherry by playing for their school association and then playing on the June long weekend in club reps.

I wish that Australia (specifically NSW) mirrored the college rugby structure used in New Zealand. Rugby isn't even an option in most CHS schools, and yet most CHS rep sides are chosen from students who attend sport schools. By the time a lot of these players reach Year 10, they are either offered scholarships to GPS schools or signed to play SG Ball for a Rugby League side.

 

[RugbyReg]

I'd start with the Australian Sports Commission to determine if this is a rugby only issue. I know there has been examples of it in QLD too. And I suspect that it is now a rugby only concern.

As suspected.

http://t.co/VPHPD56wzy

Let me know if the link doesn't work.

 

[Gary Owen III]

As suspected.

http://t.co/VPHPD56wzy

Let me know if the link doesn't work.

So obviously it is time we started thinking outside the square with all these factors affecting the young men at this stage of their lives.

The SJRU suggestion of a split comp with a half season of the 15 man game then a half season comp of 7's (or similar) for the U16's and above might not be the answer but the current status quo is not working so they need to try something. At the least it will create some discussion with the stakeholders (clubs).

I am sure that there will be holes found / or changes in this option - but maybe someone has a better idea of how to keep more kids in the game at club level in these age groups. I know a few lads that would find something a bit different like 7's just the incentive needed to stay in clubland as well as play for their schools when they hit the older age groups.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

As suspected.

http://t.co/VPHPD56wzy

Let me know if the link doesn't work.

Very interesting.
This in particular:

Got me thinking about people's motivations.
Speaking of my own I cannot help feeling that my obsession with a better pathway is the product of my concern that at a senior level we are falling behind.
It behoves me to remember the reason these kids play the game rather than the need for cannon fodder at the top.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

I think the issue is two fold. I think the game thrives on success of the senior teams (Super rugby and wallabies) and 10/11 year olds havent seen the wallabies lift the world cup or bledisloe in their life time. Combine this with the apathy towards the Tahs i think this has a big effect on junior rugby numbers. When i played junior rugby (93-95) there were massive numbers and this came off the back of the wallabies 91 world cup success.

It is amazing that we are in this situation, but it is not limited to rugby. I have been involved in both rugby and cricket and getting younger people to keep playing and commiting is hard work. I think the SJRU should work on having shorter seasons that stay away from schoolboy rugby periods. Run the season from April-July and offer private school kids a discount on rego fees

 

[S'UP]

We have a lot to thank Professionalism in sport for, but we also have a lot that we can blame on it with the biggest one being: When did junior sport stop being fun. The answer i think is when junior sports administrator, parents, coaches, etc, etc started to think of it as an arm of elite professional sport. When we were younger we trained for Rugby/Cricket, whatever sport but it was nothing like what the kids do today. You went down to the local park passed the footy around and had fun with your mate and Mr Smith (your best mates dad) coached the team. Somewhere in that hour you learnt something about the sport u were training for. Training and playing is now a very serious business 4 times a week, weight sessions, diet etc, etc and with that comes huge expectations, if we let them be kids or they let themselves be kids maybe more of them would be playing the game. I know it's a simple view but i've tried to convince myself I'm wrong and i'm struggling.

 

[Shane Smeltz]

We have a lot to thank Professionalism in sport for, but we also have a lot that we can blame on it with the biggest one being: When did junior sport stop being fun. The answer i think is when junior sports administrator, parents, coaches, etc, etc started to think of it as an arm of elite professional sport. When we were younger we trained for Rugby/Cricket, whatever sport but it was nothing like what the kids do today. You went down to the local park passed the footy around and had fun with your mate and Mr Smith (your best mates dad) coached the team. Somewhere in that hour you learnt something about the sport u were training for. Training and playing is now a very serious business 4 times a week, weight sessions, diet etc, etc and with that comes huge expectations, if we let them be kids or they let themselves be kids maybe more of them would be playing the game. I know it's a simple view but i've tried to convince myself I'm wrong and i'm struggling.

Agree with all you say but I don't know the answer.
Have a look at what's happening with USA right now with kids as young as 7-8 doing elite training seven days/week for their chosen sport. Building up to that all important 10,000 hours.
Sports are ice hockey, basketball, soccer, NFL, baseball - you name it, boys and girls can spend hours in a car driving to practises, games, having one on one coaching with specialised coaches. Seven days a week.
That's not even including swimming and athletics which are popular sports too in the USA but are individual, not team, sports.

Then a lot of the team sports have 'travelling' teams - I guess that's 'Rep' level - that play tournaments every weekend in another town/city.
I've heard that not only do the parents sacrifice a lot of TIME for little Johnny or Jill but the costs add up BIG time - even in the USA where everything is cheaper. These team sports are becoming 'middle class' in that the lower socio-economic classes cannot afford to do them now in the USA - and there are a lot of lower socio-economic people in the USA now. And they're often the ones with a lot of talent, if I can say that without sounding rude, you know what I mean.
If this is the current ways USA elite youth sports are done I shudder to think that we go that way here soon.

I know this is off topic but it's interesting to see this is becoming the norm over there - will it become the norm here anytime soon?

 

[knock on]

And then there are the nick cummins of the world reading an article today that says he didn't even play rugby until he was 18. Hazam El Masri was another who didn't play league until 17 and two years later was in nrl. I think kids find their level regardless of pathway. Too much pressure too soon in a lot of cases and kids who look like champs at 16 but fizzle by seniors

 

[Runner]

We have a lot to thank Professionalism in sport for, but we also have a lot that we can blame on it with the biggest one being: When did junior sport stop being fun. The answer i think is when junior sports administrator, parents, coaches, etc, etc started to think of it as an arm of elite professional sport. When we were younger we trained for Rugby/Cricket, whatever sport but it was nothing like what the kids do today. You went down to the local park passed the footy around and had fun with your mate and Mr Smith (your best mates dad) coached the team. Somewhere in that hour you learnt something about the sport u were training for. Training and playing is now a very serious business 4 times a week, weight sessions, diet etc, etc and with that comes huge expectations, if we let them be kids or they let themselves be kids maybe more of them would be playing the game. I know it's a simple view but i've tried to convince myself I'm wrong and i'm struggling.

What may well have also changed is sports schools and the AIS to ensure Gold.

However, kids are also being asked to stay at school till 17 when many would have left years earlier so some schools have expanded the curriculum with PASS, PDH&E courses which has made sport a recognized career path same as a trade.

As for training and committment, it may well be at a more expanded rate but read what Bradman did to practice for cricket. Before anyone gets in there can be excepts such as Doug Walters and his training