Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Brainstrust]

In response to what afl hands out is based on their revenue take from tv deals as is loig, Rugby is not in any position at present to do that. In terms of soccer, a mate of mine who has spent many years as a club president of a large junior club tells me soccer has funded from grass roots up the pipe for a very long time. The arguments are becoming so blurred on this thread between the health and numbers of participants, and the ARU levy. The game at the club level especially the 16's and 17's has been deteriorating for many years. The levy is not some smoking gun that will kill junior rugby. I actually don't know the answer and there have been many credible proposals put forward on this thread, but I do feel that clubs should adhere to a coaching standard set by the ARU. If people are presented with a strong coaching program where they think can develop, they may well be keener play that extra game, or play both loig and rugby. I think there are so many different reasons why some have walked and the solution will be a combination of responses to those many reasons.

 

[Quick Hands]

No one said that the levy caused the problem, indeed this thread started well before the levy was announced.

What has been said is that the levy is unfair.

It also seems a strange response to declining junior numbers.

 

[Fat Cat]

what if we had a Sat 17's district rugby comp. They then picked teams from that comp and schools combined at each NRC rugby centre. That way everybody gets

1. quality rugby week in week out
2. a clear pathway
3. opportunity to experience a professional training environment

the games could be played as a curtain raiser to the main games and the junior teams could train along side the main teams

there would be plenty of time for talent to be scouted via district rugby, school rugby, and the junior NRC teams prior to the big year in U18's.

available as an alternative to rugby league players in the U17 age group

able to get rid of an expensive JGC

Most importantly the ARU would get a big tick for providing a pathway which is available to everybody not just the flash schools

 

[Fat Cat]

throw a colts/19's team in there as well

 

[Quick Hands]

I can be corrected on this, but I think Colts 3 is an U/19 competition (or at least it was at some point)

There seems to be some consensus out there that the way to go might be:

Colts 1 & 2 - 20s as at present

Colts 3 - 19s (as at present?)

Colts 4 - 17s

Colts 5 - 15s

This would see a game day structure (on a Saturday) as:

Colts 1 - 3pm
Colts 2- 1.40pm
Colts 3 - 12.30am
Colts 4 - 11.20am
Colts 5 - 10.15am

Put the resources that currently go into JGC into these competitions. Let the clubs run it and the ARU resource it. This gives non-private school players a genuine pathway and access to decent coaching and resources, and it doesn't affect private school rugby at all.

Win/win I would have thought (except for leaders of petty empires who may lose control of their dung heap)

 

[Fat Cat]

I don't think it would cost that much to run

I was thinking 19's for the NRC because it would be a great way to select a train on squad for the Aust 20's the following year

 

[Quick Hands]

It wouldn't cost any more than it currently costs to field village clubs, district reps teams and JGC teams - 3 competitions with many of the same players involved.

I'd imagine that it would cost significantly less as we'd only be running 1 competition and using the resources currently allocated to JGC.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I can be corrected on this, but I think Colts 3 is an U/19 competition (or at least it was at some point)

There seems to be some consensus out there that the way to go might be:

Colts 1 & 2 - 20s as at present

Colts 3 - 19s (as at present?)

Colts 4 - 17s

Colts 5 - 15s

This would see a game day structure (on a Saturday) as:

Colts 1 - 3pm
Colts 2- 1.40pm
Colts 3 - 12.30am
Colts 4 - 11.20am
Colts 5 - 10.15am

Put the resources that currently go into JGC into these competitions. Let the clubs run it and the ARU resource it. This gives non-private school players a genuine pathway and access to decent coaching and resources, and it doesn't affect private school rugby at all.

Win/win I would have thought (except for leaders of petty empires who may lose control of their dung heap)

A position I have maintained for a long time.

Colts and Districts are well placed to run U15's and above saturday footy, as well as providing a proper pathway to grade.

Slight correction in relation to Colts 3. They play Under 19 rules, but I'm pretty sure that Under 20's who are not selected for Colts 1 or Colts 2 can play in Colts 3, they just have to play Under 19 variation rules.

 

[CatchnPass]

I like al

what if we had a Sat 17's district rugby comp. They then picked teams from that comp and schools combined at each NRC rugby centre. That way everybody gets

1. quality rugby week in week out
2. a clear pathway
3. opportunity to experience a professional training environment

the games could be played as a curtain raiser to the main games and the junior teams could train along side the main teams

there would be plenty of time for talent to be scouted via district rugby, school rugby, and the junior NRC teams prior to the big year in U18's.

available as an alternative to rugby league players in the U17 age group

able to get rid of an expensive JGC

Most importantly the ARU would get a big tick for providing a pathway which is available to everybody not just the flash schools

I think there is a lot of merit in this FC, but it would still seem to require school cooperation which, at least amongst the GPS/CAS set, is rarely forthcoming. If SS clubs are solely responsible for 17s (or even 15s up as posited by QH) then the pathway is equally clear for boys who are at rugby schools and those who are not. It has the admirable virtue of only requiring an extension of existing infrastructure - marginal cost of production is always preferred over new capex. I'm not sure exactly how the SS clubs finance it given current constraints for some, but it would keep local payers in the club into Colts and must be easier/more affordable than a new comp/pathway

 

[Quick Hands]

SS clubs would finance the basic costs in the same way that the junior village clubs currently do.

The additional resources need to come from the ARU, which should simply be a matter of redirecting funding from the JGC (which would be defunct). They might even save a bit.

This is actually just bringing junior club rugby roughly into line with what happens in other sports, it's not a new invention.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Works for me for Sydney and could probably be easily replicated in Bris-Vegas. Works for this thread as well.

One of the positives that I see in the JGC is that boys in Country and non traditional rugby areas are getting exposed to high level coaches and development opportunities that they would usually have to go to the big city schools for. That has to be good for the game, but at what cost?

I don't know enough about how Colts setup in NSW or QLD country to know how they would go picking up Under 15's and above age groups.

 

[Dave Beat]

SS clubs would finance the basic costs in the same way that the junior village clubs currently do.

The additional resources need to come from the ARU, which should simply be a matter of redirecting funding from the JGC (which would be defunct). They might even save a bit.

This is actually just bringing junior club rugby roughly into line with what happens in other sports, it's not a new invention.

Keep
It
Simple

 

[Quick Hands]

One of the positives that I see in the JGC is that boys in Country and non traditional rugby areas are getting exposed to high level coaches and development opportunities that they would usually have to go to the big city schools for. That has to be good for the game, but at what cost?

It can still happen in country areas I would have thought. Same 15 and 17 year olds, same coaches and there is a case for the ARU taking a lead there if there's no infrastructure in place.

 

[Quick Hands]

but it would still seem to require school cooperation

But it doesn't require school co-operation. This is for the boys who don't go to GPS/CAS/ISA schools.

 

[Delphy]

I have no argument with the proposal to encourage retention of players in Sydney through expanded colts comps etc and I agree that strengthening and protecting the heartland is vitally important.

But surely the aim cannot be just to preserve the isolated pockets of Union that presently exist in certain suburbs of Sydney and Brisbane. If Rugby is to survive as a viable game surely it has to expand its reach and profile.

I have seen many regular posters bemoan the loss of talented players to the dark side. The same names also comment on the lack of opportunity for boys outside the GPS to get involved in Rep rugby. The JGC is a wonderful opportunity to deal with both those concerns.

Is there a league competition that can offer the kind of national involvement that JGC can? Has there been a League (or Union) competition that has had the kind of geographic or numerical spread of opportunity? Surely we should be shoving this opportunity under the noses of every kid with a Steeden in his hand and asking "can your NRL do that?"

Look at Central Queensland in the JGC. Many of those boys are leaguies, with a healthy number of Capras players. Here they are, on the park playing Union. We have them in our game, getting great coaching and being involved in an exciting national competition.

Look at WA in JGC. Last year there were a very small number boys in the Bankwest Academy getting elite coaching. This year there are 2 full squads, training 4 times a week over summer. What a boost for Rugby in an emerging market.

Look at Sydney. In 2013 2 U16 teams at Nationals, dominated by GPS boys. Now 8 teams with numerous boys having the opportunity to train and play at the next level.

And for every boy actually in these squads, how many younger players are looking at this and thinking "here is something new and exciting to aim for in the coming years"? Toyota cup now has JGC U15, JGC U17 and a greatly expanded national U20 program as competition.

Absolutely fight for Sydney Junior Rugby. But don't lose the wider war by winning this local (but important) battle.

 

[Quick Hands]

As I said before, there's a place to provide infrastructure where none exists, such as the places that you mention.

Where infrastructure does exist, why spend scarce resources duplicating it?

 

[Fat Cat]

hi guys before you post your reply copy your bloody text. I have lost a couple of posts the last I lost solved the problems of the universe ! also with my slow typing took me about half an hour

 

[Fat Cat]

points of lost post was

1. districts and NRC best solution for Sydney
2. ARU must have the balls to stand up to schools and implement.
3. other areas need different solutions
4. eg NRC from Perth base could have their own levels below
5. QLD schools go to 17yrs completion. Solution ?
6. create Aust U/18 team instead of schools
7. if GPS and CAS don't want to be part of the pathway. Bad luck !
8. what is the time table for the NRC
9. what is the GPS time table ?
10. What is the school reps timetable ?
11. How can we make it all work

Not as good to read but there it is

 

[Quick Hands]

I think the only point where we slightly differ is in relation to schools. The boys at GPS/CAS/ISA schools already have a pathway which is well-resourced, well-funded, well-organised and has highly qualified coaches. These boys are already well catered for. They can't play in a Saturday based club competition because the schools have been playing Saturday rugby for 100 years and they aren't going to change.

As I see it, this system is designed to cater for the boys who used to follow the junior club pathway and who for decades played Saturday rugby, independent of private school players. For various reasons, this pathway is broken. These are the boys that will benefit from the type of competition you describe in #303 and I describe in #305.

I think that it would also stem the flow of boys to private schools on scholarships - no need to travel from Newport to Bellevue Hill every day if you have access to the same level of resources and coaching at Narrabeen.

School rugby is going well, lets just leave it how it is and concentrate our scarce resources on where things aren't going so well.

And to me this includes the ARU having direct involvement in areas of need as described by Delphi in #315.

It's horses for courses - the needs and challenges in some parts of Australia are different from the needs and challenges in others; it makes no sense to provide the same solution to different needs.

 

[Quick Hands]

Not sure how other areas are going, but Manly JRU are running their annual pre-season trial day for Manly village clubs on the 23 March. The breakdown:

10s - 9 teams
11s - 10 teams
12s - 8 teams
13s - 5 teams
14s - 3 teams ( 2 of which are amalgamations of 3 clubs)
15s - 1 team, plus the possibility of a 2nd team from club amalgamations
16s - 1 team (which won't have a trial - it will be the only team, if it exists)

Sobering reading.