Concussions and Protecting Our Players

[Bullrush]

I have a 13yr old who LOVES his rugby and plays both union and league.

It is a massive concern and one that I personally struggle with particularly when we look at the issue of mental health for men. I don't know what the answer is.... I am trying to raise a young man who learns how to talk and speak up when he is facing difficulties regardless of what they are and to love himself even when he makes mistakes.

Were these head issues around 40-50 years ago for players and did we just not make the link between the sport and health problems?

 

[half]

It is a concern for parents, my 5 year old son plays soccer as it develops good coordination, team work and kicking skills. I don't practice headers with him and don't really want him playing any full contact sports including Rugby until he is older, if he chooses to.

I think you will find heading practice and heading in games is banned at local park level until I think U 12.

Personal story, I was 21 and playing both league and union.

Union on Saturday and League on Sundays.

I played league at a semi professional level in the Parramatta competition and we had teams like Wentworthville, Guildford etc and all had leagues clubs to support. My team was Guildford we had the highest post in Australia.

Was playing Mount Pritchard at their home ground and they had a cricket pitch in the centre that was rock hard.

I always played as a half and in these days league scrums were contested. The side that caused the scrum got the loose head and they other side got to feed the scrum, 4 tackle rule as a time frame.

Scrum just in there half, they feed the scrum, there half got a bad bounce out of the scrum I darted around picked up the loose ball and there half grabbed my arm and was holding me he was on the ground I was standing, so turned and called my lock to come thu and take a pass from me.

There lock a former ARL player of some note [for foul play] I think also played for the Kangaroo's was there lock and he broke from the scrum, lifted his shoulder into my chin and threw me in the air then back slammed me head backwards into the cricket pitch and the last thing I recall was he came crashing over with an forearm to my head.

Hard to believe but I played on and somehow drove home. I was dizzy for days and still felt funny months latter. My Dad pulled me aside and after a long chat I quit playing both league and union as I was just to small.

I gotta say looking back on it now it was one of the smartest decisions I ever made.

Medical advise I have received [thats how I know about the no heading until up to U12] is that child brains until you are a teens are less protected and can be damaged.

It is a real issue, and also they are finding out that women's breasts can be damaged with constant big knocks and I have been told it could become as big an issue a head knocks unless sporting codes take some action.

 

[liquor box]

I think you will find heading practice and heading in games is banned at local park level until I think U 12.

Personal story, I was 21 and playing both league and union.

Union on Saturday and League on Sundays.

I played league at a semi professional level in the Parramatta competition and we had teams like Wentworthville, Guildford etc and all had leagues clubs to support. My team was Guildford we had the highest post in Australia.

Was playing Mount Pritchard at their home ground and they had a cricket pitch in the centre that was rock hard.

I always played as a half and in these days league scrums were contested. The side that caused the scrum got the loose head and they other side got to feed the scrum, 4 tackle rule as a time frame.

Scrum just in there half, they feed the scrum, there half got a bad bounce out of the scrum I darted around picked up the loose ball and there half grabbed my arm and was holding me he was on the ground I was standing, so turned and called my lock to come thu and take a pass from me.

There lock a former ARL player of some note [for foul play] I think also played for the Kangaroo's was there lock and he broke from the scrum, lifted his shoulder into my chin and threw me in the air then back slammed me head backwards into the cricket pitch and the last thing I recall was he came crashing over with an forearm to my head.

Hard to believe but I played on and somehow drove home. I was dizzy for days and still felt funny months latter. My Dad pulled me aside and after a long chat I quit playing both league and union as I was just to small.

I gotta say looking back on it now it was one of the smartest decisions I ever made.

Medical advise I have received [thats how I know about the no heading until up to U12] is that child brains until you are a teens are less protected and can be damaged.

It is a real issue, and also they are finding out that women's breasts can be damaged with constant big knocks and I have been told it could become as big an issue a head knocks unless sporting codes take some action.

At U19 level my mates and I used to have bets at the start of the season on who would get the first broken nose or who would get the first concussion. It was a badge of honour, stupid in hindsight but fun at the time.

 

[Braveheart81]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566356351198052356

Everyone should watch this.

 

[Tex]

Michael was talking about his head injuries when he was one of the inaugural Rebels. Very sad situation

 

[Tex]

This is another must listen: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0PdBesetD3G8oaFiF7eFuK?si=88s50J_qRGecEvnmuzLUvg

Anthony Fainga'a on his career and experiences of brain injuries.

 

[dru]

@Tex I look back on playing rugby and completely support my decisions as a kid to continue playing whenMum tried to move me into non-contact sports. I'm quite happy with that thinking even with what we know today.

I don't have kids though, and I get that in that situation what is good for the goose may not be acceptable for the gander. Tough being a parent.

Happy to see modern management and rules applying to kids in rugby, but I hope they continue playing the game.

 

[liquor box]

Concussion expert wants tackling ban for under 14s

A Harvard-educated neuroscientist says Australia is way behind the UK and US in dealing with degenerative brain disease in sport.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

A Harvard-educated concussion expert wants the major football codes to ban tackling in children’s sport until the age of 14, warning Australia is significantly behind the United States and United Kingdom in combating the brain disease known as chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE).

Neuroscientist Dr Chris Nowinski, a former college American football player turned professional wrestler, has warned Australian families about the prevalence of CTE, which is linked to repetitive head trauma.

The United States Soccer Federation banned heading for children aged 10 or under in 2015, while the English Football Association will begin a trial next season to forbid the practice for under 12s.

 

[stillmissit]

@Tex I look back on playing rugby and completely support my decisions as a kid to continue playing whenMum tried to move me into non-contact sports. I'm quite happy with that thinking even with what we know today.

I don't have kids though, and I get that in that situation what is good for the goose may not be acceptable for the gander. Tough being a parent.

Happy to see modern management and rules applying to kids in rugby, but I hope they continue playing the game.

Dru, there is really only one solution that is currently effective and that's banning both rugby and league, it is something (I suspect) a future government will look at doing. I also think the current size, speed and impacts of players is far greater than in my day.
I was accidentally kicked in the head at the bottom of a ruck when I was 22 and went blind for a short time, played on but remember nothing of the game. I get shimmering vision issues that people with migraine get but I don't get headaches.
I would still play the game today if I was young but I would wear headgear. There are far more advantages than disadvantages to playing and I am a recipient of some great lifelong friends. I played at a reasonable level for 11 years and do not know anyone with serious brain issues from playing in those days.
Here's a couple early reports on the use of headgear:

Efficacy of Rugby Headgear in Attenuating Repetitive Linear Impact Forces - PMC

To determine the effectiveness of rugby headgear and the effect of impact site and headgear type on attenuating repetitive linear impact forces. We obtained 10 headgear of 2 different types (n = 20) from 2 popular manufacturers: type I was Honeycomb ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Potential of Soft-Shell Rugby Headgear to Mitigate Linear and Rotational Peak Accelerations - Annals of Biomedical Engineering

Rugby union is a popular sport played across the world. The physical contact inherent in the game means that players are at increased risk of concussive injury. In 2019, World Rugby created a new category of permitted headgear under Law 4 as a medical device. This established a pathway for...

link.springer.com

 

[stillmissit]

I wonder how widespread this is and what the courts will make of it. I suspect this will not be like the scrum collapse issue which could be addressed by modification (the later data showed that more neck injuries were caused by poor head on tackling than scrum collapses).
Early onset dementia is currently on the increase in many areas and not just contact sport. https://www.dementia.org/early-onset-dementia

 

[half]

Concussion expert wants tackling ban for under 14s

A Harvard-educated neuroscientist says Australia is way behind the UK and US in dealing with degenerative brain disease in sport.

www.smh.com.au

Concussion expert wants tackling ban for under 14s​

A Harvard-educated neuroscientist says Australia is way behind the UK and US in dealing with degenerative brain disease in sport.

 

[stillmissit]

Concussion expert wants tackling ban for under 14s

A Harvard-educated neuroscientist says Australia is way behind the UK and US in dealing with degenerative brain disease in sport.

www.smh.com.au

Concussion expert wants tackling ban for under 14s​

A Harvard-educated neuroscientist says Australia is way behind the UK and US in dealing with degenerative brain disease in sport.

So what! Show me the data...

 

[LeCheese]

So what! Show me the data...

Are you ignoring the previous 31 pages of discussion or...?

 

[stillmissit]

NO, but I find the quality and source of the data to be the biggest issue in these highly emotive issues. I was asking about another American expert making claims for, in this case, bans.

 

[LeCheese]

NO, but I find the quality and source of the data to be the biggest issue in these highly emotive issues. I was asking about another American expert making claims for, in this case, bans.

There is no debate on the science/data you're questioning though - we know that youth/adolescent brains are more vulnerable, and that brain development is impacted by repeated trauma. The suggestion being made to delay or abstain entirely from exposure to repeated head trauma is, developmentally and cognitively speaking, absolutely best practice.

It's the same as best practice being to avoid consumption of alcohol until your mid-twenties, once your brain has fully developed. That of course doesn't mean many people will abide by it, but it's about having the discussion, being aware, and making informed choices.

 

[stillmissit]

There is no debate on the science/data you're questioning though - we know that youth/adolescent brains are more vulnerable, and that brain development is impacted by repeated trauma. The suggestion being made to delay or abstain entirely from exposure to repeated head trauma is, developmentally and cognitively speaking, absolutely best practice.

It's the same as best practice being to avoid consumption of alcohol until your mid-twenties, once your brain has fully developed. That of course doesn't mean many people will abide by it, but it's about having the discussion, being aware, and making informed choices.

So there is no debate, yet there is not an epidemic of brain injury-related issues from billions of kids playing soccer? Yet the science cannot be questioned, wonder where I have heard this before.

 

[LeCheese]

So there is no debate, yet there is not an epidemic of brain injury-related issues from billions of kids playing soccer? Yet the science cannot be questioned, wonder where I have heard this before.

Our understanding of CTE, its prevalence, presentation, and influencers of severity is of course still evolving as we investigate further. There is no debating that. There is also no debating that repeated head impacts are detrimental to the brain, particularly in those not fully developed, regardless of whether they lead to a post-mortem diagnosis of CTE.

 

[half]

So what! Show me the data...

This is a cross code issue it effects, league, Union, AFL, Football, Netball and Cricket, some codes have taken some action, some are deep into research, some are playing catch up. Its a matter of change or not be around in 30 to 40 years.

Some years ago in Australia and I think this was a FIFA directive, heading a ball was banned in both games and training for all children under 13.

What FIFA research indicated was that a lot of small head knocks even if not in and of themselves hard knocks the constant small knocks on undeveloped brains can have an effect. At the same time as the ban on heading FIFA made a general request to manufacturers to make a lighter ball.

In the USA gridiron is also looking at how to train and develop their youth, especially those of pre-teen age.

I have also read that a key reason for the tackling ban is the head jerk reaction and this is similar to the small knocks by heading a ball.

You don't need a knock to the head to hurt the brain, a rapid head jerk can cause the same thing.

Unless collusion codes make rule changes the general increase in knowledge will cause parents not to enrol their children and in time insurance companies to cover costs.

If rugby wants to be around in say 30 to 40 years then it will need to make some rule changes especially at junior levels.

 

[stillmissit]

This is a cross code issue it effects, league, Union, AFL, Football, Netball and Cricket, some codes have taken some action, some are deep into research, some are playing catch up. Its a matter of change or not be around in 30 to 40 years.

Some years ago in Australia and I think this was a FIFA directive, heading a ball was banned in both games and training for all children under 13.

What FIFA research indicated was that a lot of small head knocks even if not in and of themselves hard knocks the constant small knocks on undeveloped brains can have an effect. At the same time as the ban on heading FIFA made a general request to manufacturers to make a lighter ball.

In the USA gridiron is also looking at how to train and develop their youth, especially those of pre-teen age.

I have also read that a key reason for the tackling ban is the head jerk reaction and this is similar to the small knocks by heading a ball.

You don't need a knock to the head to hurt the brain, a rapid head jerk can cause the same thing.

Unless collusion codes make rule changes the general increase in knowledge will cause parents not to enrol their children and in time insurance companies to cover costs.

If rugby wants to be around in say 30 to 40 years then it will need to make some rule changes especially at junior levels.

Don't think rugby or any contact sport will be around in 30-40 years in the Western World the way we are going.

 

[Tex]

Don't think rugby or any contact sport will be around in 30-40 years in the Western World the way we are going.

Love how your contribution on this page started with a personal anecdote of being kicked in the head to point of losing vision and memory, then going on a rant about how there's only anecdotal and circumstantial data to support arguments in favour of protecting players.

I'd say we're all on the same page here - long term viability of rugby is essential. But we have to move with the times and a big part of that is addressing the duty of care to its participants.

Does anyone really look at footage of old games with players being punched and stomped senseless and think 'ahh yes, the good old days!'.

The funniest thing about that whole angle is that the old fat thugs who made names for themselves as "hard men" wouldn't last 20 minutes on a pitch in 2022. Players are about 15kg heavier, faster, fitter and stronger. The collisions they deal with are, as my orthopaedic surgeon (Irish bloke who works as staff medico for Rebels and Wallabies games in Melbourne) artfully phrased it 'In the same ballpark as car crash victims'.