Coaching the coaches

[Killer]

He doesn't lack intelligence - he has been very successful in business. He may lack Toastmaster public speaking skills, but the two things are not the same.

no I disagree, being a good designer or a good salesman doesn't necessarily translate to being a good man manager.
In my experience the ability/intelligence to understand/communicate with your players at any level is essential to gain their respect.
From my observation of him and of his comments I don't think he is a very good man manager for the longer term.
I think you can fool people for a few years but you are then found out.
I guess the proof will be how the next few years pan out, happy to be wrong.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I haven't seen any evidence that the players don't respect him. On the contrary.
I think he probably shouldn't have been there last night: he trades on his honesty but he could not deal honestly with the teamcull and yet remain loyal to the ARU. As a result he seemed flustered and wish washy.
But the idea that a quiet word with super rugby coaches would be the upshot of the gabfest is tantamount to accepting its futility.
What is needed is a plan for all levels to provide pro players with minimum skil levels.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Here's one: why don't the gabfest organisers haul in Dimitriou, the new bloke and some AFL coaches and find out what it take to run a successful code in this country?
And then hold them hostage until AFL is removed from anywhere north of the Murray

 

[bosindicus]

Given the right method, coaching the coaches should definitely lead to improvements, but the discussion rarely seems to actually talk about all the aspects of coaching. Teachers spend 4 years at university learning the nuances of transferring knowledge to someone else, from feedback, pedagogical strategies, questioning and hundreds of aspects that make them better at ensuring learning occurs rather than just talking at people.

A number of coaches only training seems to have been on the job as a player, or as an active coach. Meanwhile teachers spend their time being observed, reading research, and observing good practice. 1 of these leads to effective and progressive pedagogy (or coaching), and the other leads to a monkey see monkey do stagnant approach.

If we began coaching coaches properly, by engaging with research, looking for progression and installing real coach training from ground up then we might see some intelligent rugby on the field rather than an obsession with passion, aggression and closed drills.

The activities you run are important, but more important is how to milk the most out of them, and how to ensure they are contextually appropriate to rugby rather than inappropriate rugby-like activities that hold little resemblance to anything you'd ever see on a rugby field (4 in a line passing with no decision making).

Further, the idea that head coaches and assistance coaching roles are easily interchangeable are bizzare and do a disservice to coaches in both roles. An assistant coach who is effective at training skills under their umbrella, does not necessarily make a head coach who can generate meta-tactics and wrangle personnel issues.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Given the right method, coaching the coaches should definitely lead to improvements, but the discussion rarely seems to actually talk about all the aspects of coaching. Teachers spend 4 years at university learning the nuances of transferring knowledge to someone else, from feedback, pedagogical strategies, questioning and hundreds of aspects that make them better at ensuring learning occurs rather than just talking at people.

A number of coaches only training seems to have been on the job as a player, or as an active coach. Meanwhile teachers spend their time being observed, reading research, and observing good practice. 1 of these leads to effective and progressive pedagogy (or coaching), and the other leads to a monkey see monkey do stagnant approach.

If we began coaching coaches properly, by engaging with research, looking for progression and installing real coach training from ground up then we might see some intelligent rugby on the field rather than an obsession with passion, aggression and closed drills.

The activities you run are important, but more important is how to milk the most out of them, and how to ensure they are contextually appropriate to rugby rather than inappropriate rugby-like activities that hold little resemblance to anything you'd ever see on a rugby field (4 in a line passing with no decision making).

Further, the idea that head coaches and assistance coaching roles are easily interchangeable are bizzare and do a disservice to coaches in both roles. An assistant coach who is effective at training skills under their umbrella, does not necessarily make a head coach who can generate meta-tactics and wrangle personnel issues.

Not disagreeing with you, or saying what they're doing is currently working, but the ARU have a fair bit of info up on the level 3 and level 4 coaching certs which include quite a bit of what youre talking about here

http://www.aru.com.au/coaching/CoachingResources/Level3PastPapers.aspx


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[bosindicus]

Yeah, I've found them all quite interesting to read, but do find they are very heavy on skills papers rather than pedagogy strategies. I understand that at a high level it should be presumed that coaches have strong pedagogy, and I haven't been through the level 3 coaching so not certain of the information in it, but maybe that presumption isn't true and coaches are coming through with great rugby ideas but less fulfilled pedagogy. For example, the tennis hot shots program when training coaches makes clear from the outset that the underlying principle is the gamesense or tgfu approach, and that all activities need to be contextualised. This means quality coaching is filtering through all the way up and tennis australia can say with authority, this is our style and this is the reason behind it.

 

[Micheal]

I haven't seen any evidence that the players don't respect him. On the contrary.
I think he probably shouldn't have been there last night: he trades on his honesty but he could not deal honestly with the teamcull and yet remain loyal to the ARU. As a result he seemed flustered and wish washy.
But the idea that a quiet word with super rugby coaches would be the upshot of the gabfest is tantamount to accepting its futility.
What is needed is a plan for all levels to provide pro players with minimum skil levels.

I've never understood when people say that the players don't respect Cheika, that Cheika is unintelligent or that Cheika is a shit coach.

On Cheika as a Manager:

Cheika absolutely transformed the culture at the Waratahs and is much loved by the players who experienced him there. Some of the psychological and mental exercises he made them undertake are simply astounding.

David Pocock has said publicly he was seriously considering retiring from rugby completely by the cultural transformation in the Wallabies under Cheika's leadership reinvigorated his love for the game. He's said verbatim that "[Cheika] is someone you really want to be at your best for".

Genia's on record saying the same: "I really enjoy the culture and the environment that has been built [under Cheika]. I have really enjoyed working with Cheik. He is someone who has a lot of belief in me and that belief has given me confidence to back myself and do my best to perform". I can't find the quote but I'm fairly certain he said Cheika was the reason he wanted to continue playing for the Wallabies at a time when he resigned to the fact that he'd never play for them again.

On Cheika's Intelligence:

His business ventures, his success as a coach (below) and the fact he speaks Arabic, Italian and French fluently probably refute this. How many of our Wallabies coaches have fronted international media in another language?

On Cheika as a coach:

He coached Randwick to a Shute Shield premiership in 2004.

In 2005 he took over Leinster, who were in a disarray, and took them to a Heinken Cup semi-final. In the 2007/08 season they won the Celtic League for the first time since 2001. In 2009, they won their first ever Heineken Cup.

Stade Francais was a turbulent time for him, but he still managed a Heineken Cup Final in 2011, and a Heineken Cup semi-final the following year.

In 2013 he took over the Tahs, and moved from them from 11th place to 9th place in his first season (eight wins, eight losses).

In 2014, the Waratahs were minor premiers and won the grand final.

In 2015, contrary to what is often written on this site, the Waratahs success continued, as they placed 2nd in overall wins and 3rd on overall competition points.

In 2015, as the Wallabies coach, he beat the All Blacks 27-19 to win the Rugby Championship. After only a year as Wallabies coach, he took a Wallabies team, who was a shambles a year previous, through an exceptionally difficult schedule to runners up.

He was also named World Rugby Coach of the Year.

Had a shit year last year I'll concede that but his resume speaks for itself.

- - -

His biggest fault, if you choose to look at it that way, is that he is an insanely passionate individual and this leads to him speaking his mind (/ saying silly things) to the press where others would be more restrained.

I personally love it but I understand why others wouldnt.

what a rant btw. leave cheika alone you bullies.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Yeah, I've found them all quite interesting to read, but do find they are very heavy on skills papers rather than pedagogy strategies. I understand that at a high level it should be presumed that coaches have strong pedagogy, and I haven't been through the level 3 coaching so not certain of the information in it, but maybe that presumption isn't true and coaches are coming through with great rugby ideas but less fulfilled pedagogy. For example, the tennis hot shots program when training coaches makes clear from the outset that the underlying principle is the gamesense or tgfu approach, and that all activities need to be contextualised. This means quality coaching is filtering through all the way up and tennis australia can say with authority, this is our style and this is the reason behind it.

Are Australian tennis coaches seen as successful?

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[RedsHappy]

I've never understood when people say that the players don't respect Cheika, that Cheika is unintelligent or that Cheika is a shit coach.

On Cheika as a Manager:

Cheika absolutely transformed the culture at the Waratahs and is much loved by the players who experienced him there. Some of the psychological and mental exercises he made them undertake are simply astounding.

David Pocock has said publicly he was seriously considering retiring from rugby completely by the cultural transformation in the Wallabies under Cheika's leadership reinvigorated his love for the game. He's said verbatim that "[Cheika] is someone you really want to be at your best for".

Genia's on record saying the same: "I really enjoy the culture and the environment that has been built [under Cheika]. I have really enjoyed working with Cheik. He is someone who has a lot of belief in me and that belief has given me confidence to back myself and do my best to perform". I can't find the quote but I'm fairly certain he said Cheika was the reason he wanted to continue playing for the Wallabies at a time when he resigned to the fact that he'd never play for them again.

On Cheika's Intelligence:

His business ventures, his success as a coach (below) and the fact he speaks Arabic, Italian and French fluently probably refute this. How many of our Wallabies coaches have fronted international media in another language?

On Cheika as a coach:

He coached Randwick to a Shute Shield premiership in 2004.

In 2005 he took over Leinster, who were in a disarray, and took them to a Heinken Cup semi-final. In the 2007/08 season they won the Celtic League for the first time since 2001. In 2009, they won their first ever Heineken Cup.

Stade Francais was a turbulent time for him, but he still managed a Heineken Cup Final in 2011, and a Heineken Cup semi-final the following year.

In 2013 he took over the Tahs, and moved from them from 11th place to 9th place in his first season (eight wins, eight losses).

In 2014, the Waratahs were minor premiers and won the grand final.

In 2015, contrary to what is often written on this site, the Waratahs success continued, as they placed 2nd in overall wins and 3rd on overall competition points.

In 2015, as the Wallabies coach, he beat the All Blacks 27-19 to win the Rugby Championship. After only a year as Wallabies coach, he took a Wallabies team, who was a shambles a year previous, through an exceptionally difficult schedule to runners up.

He was also named World Rugby Coach of the Year.

Had a shit year last year I'll concede that but his resume speaks for itself.

- - -

His biggest fault, if you choose to look at it that way, is that he is an insanely passionate individual and this leads to him speaking his mind (/ saying silly things) to the press where others would be more restrained.

I personally love it but I understand why others wouldnt.

what a rant btw. leave cheika alone you bullies.

His biggest fault as Wallaby coach - and I predict that if unaltered very soon it will certainly be the root of his undoing at national level - is his inability to select a good-enough and deep-enough group of national Assistant Coaches that can credibly rival their counterparts in the national teams that will matter most, e.g. NZ and England and, I suspect, Ireland.

Is it not now clear to everyone that Larkham and Grey are not at all suitable at international, elite level, assuming that is we want the Wallabies to seriously and sustainably improve?

And that the very mixed performances of our forwards in, e.g., line out and in loose, unstructured play commends the recruitment of a dedicated forwards coach, an L Fisher or an M Foley say. Plus (at least part time) a Mental Skills coach to rival the central work G Enoka has done in this area with the ABs for many years.

It's always amazed me when posters here or media figures do not realise how utterly important is the _entire cadre_ of international coaching resources under an HC, vs just the 'hero figure' HC. NZ have proven this for years, and EJ (Eddie Jones) is proving it all over again with his holistic (full and part time) wide-span coaching group for England.

 

[Micheal]

His biggest fault as Wallaby coach - and I predict that if unaltered very soon it will certainly be the root of his undoing at national level - is his inability to select a good-enough and deep-enough group of national Assistant Coaches that can credibly rival their counterparts in the national teams that will matter most, e.g. NZ and England and, I suspect, Ireland.

Is it not now clear to everyone that Larkham and Grey are not at all suitable at international, elite level, assuming that is we want the Wallabies to seriously and sustainably improve?

And that the very mixed performances of our forwards in, e.g., line out and in loose, unstructured play commends the recruitment of a dedicated forwards coach, an L Fisher or an M Foley say. Plus (at least part time) a Mental Skills coach to rival the central work G Enoka has done in this area with the ABs for many years.

It's always amazed me when posters here or media figures do not realise how utterly important is the _entire cadre_ of international coaching resources under an HC, vs just the 'hero figure' HC. NZ have proven this for years, and EJ (Eddie Jones) is proving it all over again with his holistic (full and part time) wide-span coaching group for England.

That I agree with but lets remember that England is the strongest (financially atleast) of all the unions.

They have a warchest that we simply don't have. EJ (Eddie Jones) has a seemingly endless budget with which he can procure Assistant Coaches.

We have $13, some Kmart vouchers that expire in August and half a slab of Carlton left over from the last ARU corporate event to split between our assistants.

 

[Killer]

I've never understood when people say that the players don't respect Cheika, that Cheika is unintelligent or that Cheika is a shit coach.

On Cheika as a Manager:


On Cheika's Intelligence:



On Cheika as a coach:

what a rant btw. leave cheika alone you bullies.

You may be right? all I know of him is what I read and see on TV. I may be wrong but to me he seems one of those coaches who fly in all guns blazing, have early success then it all fizzles out for whatever reason you care to choose.
That 2014 Tahs team was virtually the Wallabies. We didn't deserve the win against Scotland in the WC. How he won coach of the year against Hansen is amazing let alone since.
Anyway time will tell.

 

[RedsHappy]

That I agree with but lets remember that England is the strongest (financially atleast) of all the unions.

They have a warchest that we simply don't have. EJ (Eddie Jones) has a seemingly endless budget with which he can procure Assistant Coaches.

We have $13, some Kmart vouchers that expire in August and have a slab of Carlton left over from the last ARU corporate event to split between our assistants.

M, I get your point. But IMO would you should say is 'it's crazily like this in resources terms if we make no changes in the way in which Australian rugby uses and allocates its financial resources.'

And thus I have a different perspective in that I see, indeed I know, at least $6m-$8m per annum is pure waste in the existing overhead expenditures of the ARUs and RUs. At least, this is conservative. Remove the ridiculous duplication, the layered 'rugby mates' everywhere that are highly unproductive, etc and we'd get that money back quickly for investment in, inter alia:

- a central coaching quality development and core skills development academy plus a fund to recruit and retain way better Wallaby assistant coaches (that we badly need)

- the recruitment of say at least 10-15 elite general and specialist rugby coaches from overseas (as our system-wide coaching is at least a decade behind the global pace)

- a fund to increase key player salaries at detrimental risk to overseas offers

- targeted investment in reviving and enhancing our grass roots

Then _add to the above_ the clear $ saving from culling 1 Super team........

......and I'd estimate that from late 2018 we could redirect around $12-$14m pa from chronic, self-indulgent waste and typically zero productive investments to a structured, sensible investment plan to revive the code in Australia.

I know you don't like AJ, but he made an incredibly powerful, telling, indisputable point in his scathing interview with Clyne:

'The ARU has spent no less than $770,000,000 in the last decade, and what has it go it show for it today?'

The answer is: vastly, and irresponsibly, way too little.

The ARU and its affiliate RUs generally have not invested or expended our code's money (which we fund I might add) wisely and correctly in the interest of code health and prosperity.

It's obvious and it has to and can change.

 

[bosindicus]

Are Australian tennis coaches seen as successful?

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RedsHappy, 42 minutes ago Report#32LikeReply
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I would say not, and that'd what makes it such a good comparison. Because the tennis hot shots coaching has only just been redesigned. So they have identified that there are issues in coaching which lead to both reduced participation and poorer skills, and have addressed it by producing a national standardised pedagogical and activity coaching program

 

[Inside Shoulder]

His biggest fault as Wallaby coach - and I predict that if unaltered very soon it will certainly be the root of his undoing at national level - is his inability to select a good-enough and deep-enough group of national Assistant Coaches that can credibly rival their counterparts in the national teams that will matter most, e.g. NZ and England and, I suspect, Ireland.

Is it not now clear to everyone that Larkham and Grey are not at all suitable at international, elite level, assuming that is we want the Wallabies to seriously and sustainably improve?

And that the very mixed performances of our forwards in, e.g., line out and in loose, unstructured play commends the recruitment of a dedicated forwards coach, an L Fisher or an M Foley say. Plus (at least part time) a Mental Skills coach to rival the central work G Enoka has done in this area with the ABs for many years.

It's always amazed me when posters here or media figures do not realise how utterly important is the _entire cadre_ of international coaching resources under an HC, vs just the 'hero figure' HC. NZ have proven this for years, and EJ (Eddie Jones) is proving it all over again with his holistic (full and part time) wide-span coaching group for England.

M Foley.
Why not R Graham?

 

[cyclopath]

Here's one: why don't the gabfest organisers haul in Dimitriou, the new bloke and some AFL coaches and find out what it take to run a successful code in this country?
And then hold them hostage until AFL is removed from anywhere north of the Murray

As much as Demetriou could be an interesting angle to provide some input, what it takes to run a successful code like AFL or NRL is quite different to the ARU. This, by no means, does not mean someone like him couldn't do it. But the codes are far from analogous. Both AFL and NRL have a local, traditionally tribally based competition focussed heavily in 2-3 markets each at best with many decades of history to fall back on. And like it or not, they have BIIIG TV dollars to roll in. I don't necessarily think that Rugby needs a traditional rugby person to run the show, but a non-aficionado might find it tough. The Byzantine political webs would be hard to deconstruct.
Clearly they need to get some fresh thinking in, no doubt, but I would be a little circumspect about how much someone like him could really "get" it. I reckon he's look at the books and say "What the actual fuck?" before laughing hysterically, and exiting.
But it would be interesting.

 

[Strewthcobber]

How would you even know if AFL coaches are doing a good job collectively?

If our Rugby teams never had to play anyone else and we never saw the NZ/etc teams our coaches would probably look pretty competant too

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[cyclopath]

How would you even know if AFL coaches are doing a good job collectively?

If our Rugby teams never had to play anyone else and we never saw the NZ/etc teams our coaches would probably look pretty competant too

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Good point.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I was trying to think of a genuinnely professional team sport that has a mature level of international competition where Australian teams are innovative and sustaibly successful. In short, a model for our rugby setup

Cricket is as close as I got. Pat Howard's domain. But I don't rate our cricket coaches either

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[Inside Shoulder]

How would you even know if AFL coaches are doing a good job collectively?

I was Hoping that you like me felt that the game was such a shambles you couldn't detect any coaching input.

As much as Demetriou could be an interesting angle to provide some input, what it takes to run a successful code like AFL or NRL is quite different to the ARU. This, by no means, does not mean someone like him couldn't do it. But the codes are far from analogous. Both AFL and NRL have a local, traditionally tribally based competition focussed heavily in 2-3 markets each at best with many decades of history to fall back on. And like it or not, they have BIIIG TV dollars to roll in. I don't necessarily think that Rugby needs a traditional rugby person to run the show, but a non-aficionado might find it tough. The Byzantine political webs would be hard to deconstruct.
Clearly they need to get some fresh thinking in, no doubt, but I would be a little circumspect about how much someone like him could really "get" it. I reckon he's look at the books and say "What the actual fuck?" before laughing hysterically, and exiting.
But it would be interesting.

i do love the absurd

 

[RedsHappy]

M Foley.
Why not R Graham?

M Foley was widely regarded as one of our best-ever forwards coaches before he was 'corrupted' when and after he took on the Tahs as HC. He was promoted as generalist beyond his competency level for that role, and it took him from his better core.

Just have a look at the work he did for/with Deans in 2008 (before the two fell out).