Clarity on Passing

[Schadenfreude]

in physics you can have many frames of reference. The question is which is the correct frame, by reference to the words of the law. The answer is the hands because it is the direction of ball movement relative to them that determines whether it is a throw forward.
Another available frame of reference is the lines on the field. But, since they are not moving all movement relative to them is toward the dead ball line.


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Thanks for that particularly condescending tip IS - however in this case the IRB has stated the frame of reference for us:

http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_12_EN.pdf

DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line

No mention of hands, very solid reference point mentioned - The Dead Ball Line.

I'm not suggesting the game should be played to that letter of the law - but that's what the law says.

Oh and this bit:

But, since they are not moving all movement relative to them is toward the dead ball line.

Is not true as well.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Frame of reference is a scientific term not a rugby term
I suppose with your knuckles dragging on the ground a "throw" may not involve you hands or arms, but even so the words arms and hands are mentioned in the law.
All those passes were thrown forward if a static frame of reference is used
Evidently I did not condescend sufficiently for you to understand
In view of the last line I don't think you have even gleaned what the video is about: every ball in that video travels toward the dead ball line ( which, contrary to your assertion about the goal line (post 14 in this thread), is the test).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference



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[spooony]

The forward pass argument reminds me of the offside argument in football. So many games one and lost on calls or the ones that was not called.

 

[spooony]

totally agree and despair of the ignorance of those who subscribe to a different view...many many years ago a mate of mine just could not accept that if you were running flat chat and passed the ball it would travel forward relative to the ground.
So we got in a car, opened the window, cranked her up to 80 threw the ball out and jammed on the brakes...........he still didn't believe it.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/features/duty_ref/898151.htm

A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
You will note they talk of "a throw forward" and this is an action which refers to the act of the pass, not the act of catching! What I am saying is that the spectator judges where the ball was caught. That is a forward catch at best and is not an infringement under law.
You see when someone driving a car at 100km/h throws a ball backwards out of the car and then brakes and stops. The ball will come past the car. Is that a throw forward? Never!
What happens is that the ball is travelling at the speed of the car (100km/h) when you throw it backwards at 20km/h it still has a forward momentum of 80km and that is why the ball moves forward , but it has not been thrown forward.
Now the rugby ball is the same. The player running with the ball at 30km/h pass the ball backwards at 20km/h. The ball has a forward momentum of 10km/h. That is about 2 metres per second if you convert from km to metres. That means that if the ball is in the air for 1 second it will drift forward by 2m. That is why when this player passes the ball perfectly flat as he reaches the 22m line, the ball will be caught 2 m into the 22m. That is not a forward pass but a forward catch and is not an infringement! But the spectators all call out forward pass and are aggrieved when the referee plays on.
Now the faster a player runs forward the faster the ball is traveling and the more forward his pass will seem. Do we want to penalise players for being fast? Surely not. With the TMO in the Currie Cup, now able to rule on forward passes before a try is scored they will all be judging throws forward and not forward catches.
Tappe Henning, the former test referee, put it brilliantly when he once said to me " Mark, you must be able to judge a forward pass within the first metre it is thrown!. He was saying you must judge the ball out of the hands and look at the action of the hands. It is that SIMPLE.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Now the rugby ball is the same. The player running with the ball at 30km/h pass the ball backwards at 20km/h. The ball has a forward momentum of 10km/h. That is about 2 metres per second if you convert from km to metres. That means that if the ball is in the air for 1 second it will drift forward by 2m. That is why when this player passes the ball perfectly flat as he reaches the 22m line, the ball will be caught 2 m into the 22m. That is not a forward pass but a forward catch and is not an infringement! But the spectators all call out forward pass and are aggrieved when the referee plays on.

And the spectators do so because they are standing still and from that frame of reference it travelled toward the dead ball line: that is not the correct frame of reference from which to assess the legality of the pass. This is because the defining characteristic of a throw forward is its motion out of the hand or arm.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Some blokes are able to curve a ball when they throw a pass - some of these throw it forward before it begins to curve backwards. This is a throw forward notwithstanding that the bloke catching it is travelling behind the passer.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Frame of reference is a scientific term not a rugby term
I suppose with your knuckles dragging on the ground a "throw" may not involve you hands or arms, but even so the words arms and hands are mentioned in the law.
All those passes were thrown forward if a static frame of reference is used
Evidently I did not condescend sufficiently for you to understand
In view of the last line I don't think you have even gleaned what the video is about: every ball in that video travels toward the dead ball line ( which, contrary to your assertion about the goal line (post 14 in this thread), is the test).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference



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OK I'm sorry - I had assumed you could read. If you could read - instead of watch videos - you'd have understood my point.

In my spare time today I'll create an animated gif which flashes the words "‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line"

 

[spooony]

And the spectators do so because they are standing still and from that frame of reference it travelled toward the dead ball line: that is not the correct frame of reference from which to assess the legality of the pass. This is because the defining characteristic of a throw forward is its motion out of the hand or arm.

you were correct.

Some blokes are able to curve a ball when they throw a pass - some of these throw it forward before it begins to curve backwards. This is a throw forward notwithstanding that the bloke catching it is travelling behind the passer.

They made it simple

judge the ball out of the hands and look at the action of the hands.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I thought I understood the rules before the world cup... now I'm not so sure.

You said it all a long time ago: you've been wrong on just about every point since.
There's a lesson in that.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Then please show me your working. Mine is below:

The Law is (From IRB Source http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_12_EN.pdf)

DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

"Forward means towards the opposing team's dead ball line" - I was going to try to explain that to you, but I'm not sure that simple concept can be broken down more simply.

The linked video is certainly how the interpretations should be (and mostly is) applied by referees.

This is also Newtonian Physics and nothing to do with Einsteinian Science...

Can you please show me where you disagree by licking the screen for

a) That's not the IRB Law
b) "‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line." actually means "Forward means relative to the passing action of the player"
c) Einstein says that it's ok because spacetime is curved.
d) Despite being explicitly defined in the next sentence "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward." that actual definition is something I've learned from i) my therapist ii) my mummy iii) can you please type slower I can't read that fast.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Then please show me your working. Mine is below:

The Law is (From IRB Source http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_12_EN.pdf)



"Forward means towards the opposing team's dead ball line" - I was going to try to explain that to you, but I'm not sure that simple concept can be broken down more simply.

The linked video is certainly how the interpretations should be (and mostly is) applied by referees.

This is also Newtonian Physics and nothing to do with Einsteinian Science...

Can you please show me where you disagree by licking the screen for

a) That's not the IRB Law
b) "‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line." actually means "Forward means relative to the passing action of the player"
c) Einstein says that it's ok because spacetime is curved.
d) Despite being explicitly defined in the next sentence "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward." that actual definition is something I've learned from i) my therapist ii) my mummy iii) can you please type slower I can't read that fast.

In what language did you think this?

 

[Schadenfreude]

Reading and Comprehension wasn't taught at your school? Man that deserves it's own thread.

The state of schools today is deplorable... if nothing else the physics departments need a LOT more resources... and colouring books.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Feeling better yet? No doubt this will lower you blood pressure.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

or this:

http://dev.physicslab.org/Document.aspx?doctype=5&filename=Kinematics_RelativeVelocity.xml

 

[Schadenfreude]

Oh I see. You think that by running forwards you can make the ball not travel towards the opposition's dead ball line?

 

[spooony]

 

[Inside Shoulder]

 

[chasmac]

getting a bit boring now guys.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Thats a bit like complaining about sex on TV: change the channel
(I agree, but)

 

[suckerforred]

Can we agree to disagree boys. Lets face it the the only intreptation the matters is one of the refs follow, and we hope that that is the same as the IRB.