Clarity on Passing

[Ryphon]

Tried searching with limited luck on a concrete answer.

I'm looking for the actual rules relating to passing and when the pass is considered forward.

Now, the IRB 'for dummies' rules state that the ball must be passed backwards in the sense that it will travel to your own touch line.

However, one can pass the ball backwards at speed, and relative to the ground, the ball will actually move forward. However, in terms of player positioning, the pass is backwards. This is also illustrated in several clips on Youtube (and it's fairly logical).

Furthermore, in the prior Super season, a lot of the commentary mentioned the passes were legal as long as they left the passing players hands backwards.

Anyway, any official stance on this from the IRB/refs?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That answer lies in what you are not allowed to do: propelling the ball towards one's opponent's dead ball line with ones hands/arms is either a throw forward or a knock on.
Thus the test is the direction in which the ball travels from the hands, in the case of a throw forward. If the first movement of the ball is toward the opponent's dead ball line it is a throw forward/knock on. Thus, if a ball is first propelled directly across field or backwards but is blown or rolls forward it is not a forward pass.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_12_EN.pdf

 

[Schadenfreude]

I thought I understood the rules before the world cup... now I'm not so sure.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

This is the official IRB stance (obviously because it is their official show and youtube channel)

The main guide for referee's is whether or not the ball was released backwards out of the hands, and when in doubt, whether the receiver takes the ball in front, or behind him (so basically is the ball moving backwards relative to the players?) . So keep this in mind if your a fly half and want to push the boundaries a bit

 

[spooony]

Just look at the wrist action.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Its not "guidance": the law is specific.
Unlike league (originally) the law makers in union understood Einsteinian relativity.
The relevant frame of reference is not the stationary spectator or the slower ref or even the supporting player: it is the passing player. Provided he does not propel the ball toward the opponent's goal line it is not a throw forward as a matter of physics.

 

[Dam0]

DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

There are hundreds of threads, each with hundreds of posts, on this very issue in the rugby refs forum. Basically there is two lines of thought:

a) any pass that is caught in front of where it was passed is a forward pass.
b) a pass is only forward if it is propelled forward out of the hands. A pass that is propelled backwards but because of the momentum of the passer is caught in front of the original passer would not be a forward pass.

I was always strongly on the side of b) and this was the majority position, although there were a few posters, mainly from the UK, who subscribed to a).

I think the recent total rugby show clip settles the issue given that it is an official IRB posting, and also it has been shown with approval by SA Refs.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

People who subscribe to (a) should break off and form their own brand of rugby, because it would be a totally different game.

 

[spooony]

Referees mostly looks at the players wrist action for guidance. If it points forward its a forward pass simple

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Good video from total rugby. Leaves no doubt really on forward passes.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

People who subscribe to (a) should break off and form their own brand of rugby, because it would be a totally different game.

totally agree and despair of the ignorance of those who subscribe to a different view...many many years ago a mate of mine just could not accept that if you were running flat chat and passed the ball it would travel forward relative to the ground.
So we got in a car, opened the window, cranked her up to 80 threw the ball out and jammed on the brakes...........he still didn't believe it.

 

[Swat]

totally agree and despair of the ignorance of those who subscribe to a different view...many many years ago a mate of mine just could not accept that if you were running flat chat and passed the ball it would travel forward relative to the ground.
So we got in a car, opened the window, cranked her up to 80 threw the ball out and jammed on the brakes...........he still didn't believe it.

A much simpler and safer way would have been to just get him to throw the ball up in the car and catch it, by simple logic if the ball doesn't fly backwards into his face it has travelled forward with momentum. You need smarter friends...

 

[Schadenfreude]

Its not "guidance": the law is specific.
Unlike league (originally) the law makers in union understood Einsteinian relativity.
The relevant frame of reference is not the stationary spectator or the slower ref or even the supporting player: it is the passing player. Provided he does not propel the ball toward the opponent's goal line it is not a throw forward as a matter of physics.

When I read the law I think the frame of reference is the goal line.

EDIT: I mean Dead Ball Line.

 

[Hawko]

There are hundreds of threads, each with hundreds of posts, on this very issue in the rugby refs forum. Basically there is two lines of thought:

a) any pass that is caught in front of where it was passed is a forward pass.
b) a pass is only forward if it is propelled forward out of the hands. A pass that is propelled backwards but because of the momentum of the passer is caught in front of the original passer would not be a forward pass.

I was always strongly on the side of b) and this was the majority position, although there were a few posters, mainly from the UK, who subscribed to a).

I think the recent total rugby show clip settles the issue given that it is an official IRB posting, and also it has been shown with approval by SA Refs.

The difficulty is that unless you look at the passing players hands and wrists its very hard to determine b). Yet another impossible task we allocate to referees who are supposed to be running at top speed , aligned in position to see every players hands in the movement while watching the defensive line for offside etc. Its just too much to ask of a human. As a result, lots of mistakes are made both ways. If the rule was changed to a) then adjudication by assistant referees would only require them to keep up.

The conservatives will howl that that's not how the rules were written, and God knows I'd love to see scrums revert to the written rules, but this is one area where making a minor change would help adjudication immensely and take a lot of angst out of the game. And it wouldn't wreck backline play either though I am sure people will claim that. But you would expect to see passers angling the ball back slightly and runners, especially those wide of the passer, coming from deeper than they do now.

Passes that are actually OK but look forward only add to refereeing controversy, and the less of that we have the better.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Not allowing players to pass the ball while moving towards the OPP goal-line (because the ball technically moves forward) would completely change the game. And tries would be much harder to score. It's just not realistic, trial it in a game of touch rugby and see. (or real rugby with if the resources are available)

 

[Schadenfreude]

I'm certainly not advocating the "if the ball goes forward it's a forward pass" position, just that when I read the laws that's what I interpret them as saying.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A much simpler and safer way would have been to just get him to throw the ball up in the car and catch it, by simple logic if the ball doesn't fly backwards into his face it has travelled forward with momentum. You need smarter friends...

I know but he ruled that out.....I haven't seen him for 10 years
He was doing physics for the HSC at the time...as was I


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[Inside Shoulder]

When I read the law I think the frame of reference is the goal line.

in physics you can have many frames of reference. The question is which is the correct frame, by reference to the words of the law. The answer is the hands because it is the direction of ball movement relative to them that determines whether it is a throw forward.
Another available frame of reference is the lines on the field. But, since they are not moving all movement relative to them is toward the dead ball line.


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[Swat]