CAS Rugby 2022

[WLF3]

There you go, I was at the game in appalling rain and for some reason I thought it was the other barker lad at 10 (name escapes me)… so I have seen him play. Yeah that was an odd game, a lot of good players didn’t fire on that evening…

the current knox 10 is quite a good kicker and distributer… not the biggest kid going around. The younger Edmed is at trinity… his brother was great for CAS against GPS at joeys some years back

Or maybe there’s a waves 10 tomorrow that steels the show??? (I hope not)

The Waves 10 is good, great passer and boot, young though in year 11, sounds like Katoa's shoes will be near impossible to fill.

In last years CAS 1s the wrong front row was picked, they got pushed back, we were all amazed they didn't pick the obvious, and best, combo Black and Smith, the scrum would have been exactly the opposite, anyway.

I think tomorrows games will be terrific! May the best teams win.

 

[bring back rucking]

The Waves 10 is good, great passer and boot, young though in year 11, sounds like Katoa's shoes will be near impossible to fill.

In last years CAS 1s the wrong front row was picked, they got pushed back, we were all amazed they didn't pick the obvious, and best, combo Black and Smith, the scrum would have been exactly the opposite, anyway.

I think tomorrows games will be terrific! May the best teams win.

Agree… I found that prop selection quite bizarre at the time.

dry track tomorrow, should be a good crowd… Hopefully the ref lets it flow and we don’t knock anyone out of Tuesdays fixture

 

[Bob_Jones]

Ap1 any thoughts from an aloys perspective of what you think should happen rugby wise re the CAS survey? Is there a good crop of young talent, albeit without depth of numbers, that just needs a stronger rugby program / department? Interested to hear from someone on the ground week to week

BBR,

I can only comment as someone with relatively recent experience with the school...

It is going to be very difficult for the school. A relatively small cohort of students (approx 150 per yr), with no additional intakes in years 9 or 11 mean that what they have in year 7 is the maximum number of potential rugby players that they have in year 11/12. The school is obviously deliberately focused on academics and also other extra curricular activities (music, arts, drama, etc) and has the strong support of all parents for this focus. This combined with a very clear and openly stated position on scholarships means that the starting base of players is not as strong as other schools and doesn't get supplemented in later years (again, very much supported by the parents).

In the short time I have been there, I have seen the numbers of kids (and importantly also parents) who have an interested in rugby is declining, mostly at the expense of soccer and truth be told, this is what I also see in club rugby. The problems are all then quite circular in that there are less kids interested, so less teams, which usually means weaker teams, which means they often get badly beaten, which leads to any'swing voters' leaving rugby, which then perpetuates the problem. One other very obvious problem is that of injuries. With less depth in numbers, they probably have a disproportionately large impact when compared to other schools.

The rugby community at the school is very keen (as is often the case with rugby communities), the effort and commitment of the coaches & staff is good, and the kids give it their all (sometimes amazingly so in the Opens, where I am often amazed at how much they put their bodies on the line against kids who are 1 year away from professional rugby / league contracts), but it simply doesn't have the resources (players, facilities, grounds, etc) to compete with some other schools. The best way I put it to people is that they are "school kids playing rugby", not "professional rugby players at school".

As I have mentioned in previous posts, the best outcome would be a school rugby association merger, whereby schools could be matched up appropriately so that boys who wish to play rugby can continue to do so through the school rugby program.

I know it would horrify some people (and would have plenty of logistical issues), but I have often wondered if a school rugby association merger was never going to eventuate, would it be better for schools in a similar situation to become SJRU accredited clubs and play in the club rugby system, perhaps in the 13-16s age group and come back into a school program for Opens? It certainly would allow younger teams to be graded more appropriately, hence the negative cycle described above might be broken.

 

[Snort]

BBR,

I can only comment as someone with relatively recent experience with the school...

It is going to be very difficult for the school. A relatively small cohort of students (approx 150 per yr), with no additional intakes in years 9 or 11 mean that what they have in year 7 is the maximum number of potential rugby players that they have in year 11/12. The school is obviously deliberately focused on academics and also other extra curricular activities (music, arts, drama, etc) and has the strong support of all parents for this focus. This combined with a very clear and openly stated position on scholarships means that the starting base of players is not as strong as other schools and doesn't get supplemented in later years (again, very much supported by the parents).

In the short time I have been there, I have seen the numbers of kids (and importantly also parents) who have an interested in rugby is declining, mostly at the expense of soccer and truth be told, this is what I also see in club rugby. The problems are all then quite circular in that there are less kids interested, so less teams, which usually means weaker teams, which means they often get badly beaten, which leads to any'swing voters' leaving rugby, which then perpetuates the problem. One other very obvious problem is that of injuries. With less depth in numbers, they probably have a disproportionately large impact when compared to other schools.

The rugby community at the school is very keen (as is often the case with rugby communities), the effort and commitment of the coaches & staff is good, and the kids give it their all (sometimes amazingly so in the Opens, where I am often amazed at how much they put their bodies on the line against kids who are 1 year away from professional rugby / league contracts), but it simply doesn't have the resources (players, facilities, grounds, etc) to compete with some other schools. The best way I put it to people is that they are "school kids playing rugby", not "professional rugby players at school".

As I have mentioned in previous posts, the best outcome would be a school rugby association merger, whereby schools could be matched up appropriately so that boys who wish to play rugby can continue to do so through the school rugby program.

I know it would horrify some people (and would have plenty of logistical issues), but I have often wondered if a school rugby association merger was never going to eventuate, would it be better for schools in a similar situation to become SJRU accredited clubs and play in the club rugby system, perhaps in the 13-16s age group and come back into a school program for Opens? It certainly would allow younger teams to be graded more appropriately, hence the negative cycle described above might be broken.

Exactly and obviously right.

 

[Running_rugby_1954]

Wayne Bennett talking about the Barker 10. Glowing support from one of the best.

Bennett confident teen star can handle international baptism of fire

Isaiya Katoa is one of the Dolphins’ key signings and has been touted as a potential superstar. But is it too early to play a Test before being tried at NSW Cup or NRL level?

www.smh.com.au

 

[Running_rugby_1954]

Agree… I found that prop selection quite bizarre at the time.

dry track tomorrow, should be a good crowd… Hopefully the ref lets it flow and we don’t knock anyone out of Tuesdays fixture

Selectors that don’t understand there is a difference between tight and loose head props just show they don’t know enough to be selecting. Poor Yazdani had never played loose head, and didn’t know he had to split his feet so the ball could go in the scrum.

Game over from one selection.

Ah well hopefully no blue card controversies for Barker kids this year to ruin the the teams at the last minute as well.

 

[Running_rugby_1954]

Josh Neccessarian (spelling?) I think was the controversial one

One of the many Barker controversies. They seem to be made of Teflon though.

 

[WLF3]

BBR,

I can only comment as someone with relatively recent experience with the school...

It is going to be very difficult for the school. A relatively small cohort of students (approx 150 per yr), with no additional intakes in years 9 or 11 mean that what they have in year 7 is the maximum number of potential rugby players that they have in year 11/12. The school is obviously deliberately focused on academics and also other extra curricular activities (music, arts, drama, etc) and has the strong support of all parents for this focus. This combined with a very clear and openly stated position on scholarships means that the starting base of players is not as strong as other schools and doesn't get supplemented in later years (again, very much supported by the parents).

In the short time I have been there, I have seen the numbers of kids (and importantly also parents) who have an interested in rugby is declining, mostly at the expense of soccer and truth be told, this is what I also see in club rugby. The problems are all then quite circular in that there are less kids interested, so less teams, which usually means weaker teams, which means they often get badly beaten, which leads to any'swing voters' leaving rugby, which then perpetuates the problem. One other very obvious problem is that of injuries. With less depth in numbers, they probably have a disproportionately large impact when compared to other schools.

The rugby community at the school is very keen (as is often the case with rugby communities), the effort and commitment of the coaches & staff is good, and the kids give it their all (sometimes amazingly so in the Opens, where I am often amazed at how much they put their bodies on the line against kids who are 1 year away from professional rugby / league contracts), but it simply doesn't have the resources (players, facilities, grounds, etc) to compete with some other schools. The best way I put it to people is that they are "school kids playing rugby", not "professional rugby players at school".

As I have mentioned in previous posts, the best outcome would be a school rugby association merger, whereby schools could be matched up appropriately so that boys who wish to play rugby can continue to do so through the school rugby program.

I know it would horrify some people (and would have plenty of logistical issues), but I have often wondered if a school rugby association merger was never going to eventuate, would it be better for schools in a similar situation to become SJRU accredited clubs and play in the club rugby system, perhaps in the 13-16s age group and come back into a school program for Opens? It certainly would allow younger teams to be graded more appropriately, hence the negative cycle described above might be broken.

Ap1 , as you can see re the "likes" you have received there are many of us who agree with your overview, I am one of those.
I have a nephew at Aloys and have had several more very close family members at Aloys, prior to the change of direction.

Given that the school has chosen a particular direction re academia, then the inevitable will typically happen, and it has now.
Sydney High and Grammar are obvious examples.

A merger, grading system is required, lots of us know that, time will tell, I suspect in the end it will happen inevitably.

 

[WLF3]

Selectors that don’t understand there is a difference between tight and loose head props just show they don’t know enough to be selecting. Poor Yazdani had never played loose head, and didn’t know he had to split his feet so the ball could go in the scrum.

Game over from one selection.

Ah well hopefully no blue card controversies for Barker kids this year to ruin the the teams at the last minute as well.

Don't think it was game over from 1 selection, the front row should have been as I said above, as we already had 2 ferocious and bigger ball runners in the 2nd row. I think Ned SS was a bigger loss, but even then our team was terrific. To be honest, the GPS team was also mucked up, Bowen in the 2s was a joke, and O'Donnell was injured, mind you we had an outside centre out.

Just goes to show how the politics effects selections, does every year.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Ap1 , as you can see re the "likes" you have received there are many of us who agree with your overview, I am one of those.
I have a nephew at Aloys and have had several more very close family members at Aloys, prior to the change of direction.

Given that the school has chosen a particular direction re academia, then the inevitable will typically happen, and it has now.
Sydney High and Grammar are obvious examples.

A merger, grading system is required, lots of us know that, time will tell, I suspect in the end it will happen inevitably.

Unfortunately it sounds like Aloys are only a few years away from not being able to put up a 1st XV team even if this is only a 1 or 2 year problem. Maybe this will be a further catlayst for a genuine re-think on the competition structures.

 

[Lindommer]

I know it would horrify some people (and would have plenty of logistical issues), but I have often wondered if a school rugby association merger was never going to eventuate, would it be better for schools in a similar situation to become SJRU accredited clubs and play in the club rugby system, perhaps in the 13-16s age group and come back into a school program for Opens? It certainly would allow younger teams to be graded more appropriately, hence the negative cycle described above might be broken.

There's a precedent for such a path in the juniors/schools competition in Canberra. With so few independent schools and enough junior clubs sanity prevailed many years ago and a "merged" comp developed.

There's another precedent for a competition like this in Sydney junior cricket: a number of the minor independent schools put their prep schools teams in the district comps as organising matches against other junior schools is too difficult.

However, I, for one, would miss Aloys in the CAS competition.

 

[rod skellet]

Despite playing tomorrow against Cranbrook and being eligible for CAS selection, Isaiya Katoa will not be selected for CAS due to his selection for Tonga.

 

[bring back rucking]

BBR,

I can only comment as someone with relatively recent experience with the school...

It is going to be very difficult for the school. A relatively small cohort of students (approx 150 per yr), with no additional intakes in years 9 or 11 mean that what they have in year 7 is the maximum number of potential rugby players that they have in year 11/12. The school is obviously deliberately focused on academics and also other extra curricular activities (music, arts, drama, etc) and has the strong support of all parents for this focus. This combined with a very clear and openly stated position on scholarships means that the starting base of players is not as strong as other schools and doesn't get supplemented in later years (again, very much supported by the parents).

In the short time I have been there, I have seen the numbers of kids (and importantly also parents) who have an interested in rugby is declining, mostly at the expense of soccer and truth be told, this is what I also see in club rugby. The problems are all then quite circular in that there are less kids interested, so less teams, which usually means weaker teams, which means they often get badly beaten, which leads to any'swing voters' leaving rugby, which then perpetuates the problem. One other very obvious problem is that of injuries. With less depth in numbers, they probably have a disproportionately large impact when compared to other schools.

The rugby community at the school is very keen (as is often the case with rugby communities), the effort and commitment of the coaches & staff is good, and the kids give it their all (sometimes amazingly so in the Opens, where I am often amazed at how much they put their bodies on the line against kids who are 1 year away from professional rugby / league contracts), but it simply doesn't have the resources (players, facilities, grounds, etc) to compete with some other schools. The best way I put it to people is that they are "school kids playing rugby", not "professional rugby players at school".

As I have mentioned in previous posts, the best outcome would be a school rugby association merger, whereby schools could be matched up appropriately so that boys who wish to play rugby can continue to do so through the school rugby program.

I know it would horrify some people (and would have plenty of logistical issues), but I have often wondered if a school rugby association merger was never going to eventuate, would it be better for schools in a similar situation to become SJRU accredited clubs and play in the club rugby system, perhaps in the 13-16s age group and come back into a school program for Opens? It certainly would allow younger teams to be graded more appropriately, hence the negative cycle described above might be broken.

Thanks Ap1

oakhill used to do that in the late 80s and 90s prior to ISA. They played 12s-16s in sjru on Saturdays and then rolled up into Eastwood for rep selections. The first xv then played in the Waratah shield and informal other arrangements typically on Wednesday afternoons. But it was a logistical nightmare and created zero rugby school spirit as each team was sent all over Sydney. They have grown to become a strong rugby school since joining the ISA with good crowds and much greater playing depth (4-5 teams in each age group v 1 in the 90s).

I get the issues. Everyone wants to turn up on Saturday with an even chance of winning and more importantly in a safe playing environment. For the 3 more rugby focussed CAS schools that’s the addition of games against 5/6 of the 9 GPS schools which currently happens.

personally I don’t want the CAS member schools changed for what is a uniquely rugby problem. I enjoy the summer sports rounds (basketball etc) I can’t comment on other winter sports but they seem to be evenly matched. Id like to see a forum on schoolboy rugby to see if anyone can actually address the imbalance and formalise something that solves those issues. The resurgence of shore this year has probably made that harder to achieve. A couple of years ago they withdrew their 16as from GPS rounds which appeared to be the catalyst for change leaving only 5 of the 9 original GPS schools playing A grade in that age group.

However that has not been the case going forward. They were strong in all a grades when Knox played them this year and now have a legitimate 6 school rugby competition

It’s probably less about the solution and more about the ability to execute with different motivations and traditions in place.

 

[WLF3]

Thanks Ap1

oakhill used to do that in the late 80s and 90s prior to ISA. They played 12s-16s in sjru on Saturdays and then rolled up into Eastwood for rep selections. The first xv then played in the Waratah shield and informal other arrangements typically on Wednesday afternoons. But it was a logistical nightmare and created zero rugby school spirit as each team was sent all over Sydney. They have grown to become a strong rugby school since joining the ISA with good crowds and much greater playing depth (4-5 teams in each age group v 1 in the 90s).

I get the issues. Everyone wants to turn up on Saturday with an even chance of winning and more importantly in a safe playing environment. For the 3 more rugby focussed CAS schools that’s the addition of games against 5/6 of the 9 GPS schools which currently happens.

personally I don’t want the CAS member schools changed for what is a uniquely rugby problem. I enjoy the summer sports rounds (basketball etc) I can’t comment on other winter sports but they seem to be evenly matched. Id like to see a forum on schoolboy rugby to see if anyone can actually address the imbalance and formalise something that solves those issues. The resurgence of shore this year has probably made that harder to achieve. A couple of years ago they withdrew their 16as from GPS rounds which appeared to be the catalyst for change leaving only 5 of the 9 original GPS schools playing A grade in that age group.

However that has not been the case going forward. They were strong in all a grades when Knox played them this year and now have a legitimate 6 school rugby competition

It’s probably less about the solution and more about the ability to execute with different motivations and traditions in place.

Agree BBR, I also don't want the CAS schools changed but I think the Rugby situation is a rare case, other than the other sports, where the physicality, and therefore safety factor, demands a re-think. I would luv Aloys to get stronger but can't see it happening.

It was also mentioned above that in maybe 1-2 years Aloys may not be able to put up a 1st XV team.
Truth is, they are already at that point. Currently the stronger schools replace boys as the game progresses, and the scores are still very 1 sided.
That's no good for anyone.

Our saving grace is that we get to play the GPS schools as a lead in to our CAS comp, imagine if we still had the home and away format involving only the CAS schools. It's time for a change IMO.

 

[bring back rucking]

Agree with all of that WLF, but if you were to crystal ball it, and assume something does happen, what does it look like??? (an executed outcome, not what we would like to happen in a perfect world)… including the interests of the strong 3 rugby schools

 

[Hector]

It was also mentioned above that in maybe 1-2 years Aloys may not be able to put up a 1st XV team.

You should probably be careful perpetuating something like this which you don't know to be correct, and, which I haven't seen mentioned on these pages, and, with my involvement in the school I know to be incorrect. If you base it on the fact of one team in the age group for both the 14s and 15s, they have 29 and 31 kids in each age group respectively, which is not significantly different to other years (for example, there was only one u16s team in 2019, the same year Aloys First XV beat Waverley's First XV at Death Valley, I'm sure you recall, being not that long ago and when your older boy was either in the opens or 16s).

SAC will never genuinely threaten a title, which has been largely the same for 90 years. It may be better for them to play a whole season of evenly matched 'invitationals' rather than against the better CAS sides, I don't necessarily disagree. But to say that 'in 1-2 years Aloys may not be able to put up a 1st XV team' is way off the mark. There is a strong but small rugby community at the school and it has very genuine support from the School, top down, with a keen will to see it continue. It won't cease to exist.

 

[bring back rucking]

Hector I think everyone is happy to hear that.

 

[Props are People too]

In the 16As Waverley over Knox by 26-19, after Knox led 19-0 in the first half. Knox switched off. The Wav 10 looks sharp and a great kicking game.

 

[Snort]

Trinity leading Aloys 12-0 in a 2nds game of uninspiring standard. I’ll provide updates this afternoon. I’ll be fuzzy on names - I have seen exactly one person with a match program. Perhaps we’re meant to share?

 

[Snort]

12-5 to Trinity in 2s, Trinity with a player in the bin.