CAS Rugby 2022

[DaSchmooze]

Hello Waves
St.Gregory's College at Campbelltown. In the past, a traditional Rugby league school, but with increasing gentrification, it is now a bastion of aspirational Middle Class existence. In fact, its evaluation to a Middle Class status, places it in terms of outlook, values and Socio-Economic aspirations, very comfortably to mix with CAS and GPS Schools. It might still have Rugby League roots, in the Campbelltown area.But such a heritage, is now wearing thin, particularly amongst the Middle Class Families that now frequent this school. I believe they have 1200 Boys so depth will not be a problem. Because of its Rugby League connections, talented players should not be in short supply either.

Hopefully, parents, staff and the school's leadership will see where their true future lies. By embracing the one true sporting faith for Winter, that is Rugby Union. By purging, the dark side, from their school's past. They will see the "Light" and celebrate by singing the "World in Union". Such an exoticism is long overdue for St.Gregory's College.

Other schools could include Canberra Grammar, a very gentrified, professional Middle Class Environment. Yes a bit of travel, but no different than Queensland GPS, where travel is extensive. They don't have many Rugby Teams within the School, about three per age division. But that compares favourably with most CAS Schools, these days. Also, Marist College and St.Edmunds could come into consideration as well.

Other schools in the mix, could include St.Edwards at Gosford, they have 900 Boys, but also need a Rugby Union exoticism, as do Marcellan College, at Randwick. They and Waves, could become rivals, fighting out Catholic Rugby supremacy for the Eastern Suburbs. In time we may see Central Coast Grammar, expand in Numbers, together with Hunter Valley Grammar School Grammar as well as The Illawara Grammar School. Nor should we rule out Pittwater House, Kinross, The Cathedral School at Town Hall, TAS or even Oakhill Jumping Ship. So while some of these schools will need to grow in school numbers, they are located in Growth Areas such, as the Central Coast. Most already have Rugby, as a Winter Sport, be it small in numbers.

But does the CAS want to expand and travel.

I like the thinking here Black and White but I'll offer some thoughts on why most of those options are unlikely (sorry to rain on your parade!):

St. Gregs - still has strong League ties and doesn't offer strength or numbers in other sports. I think only recently became a full member of ISA
St. Edwards - Independent school but no history of Saturday sport. That would be a MASSIVE cultural hurdle to overcome
Marcellin - diocesan school = low fees = no money to spent on Saturday sport (which also doesn't exist)
CCGS - Very small school. Co-ed but only one grade per age in Rugby. Not a like for like comparison in terms of team numbers each week
HVGS/TIGS - Not a bad suggestion but again, no Saturday sport culture
Pittwater House - not the school they once were in terms of sports participation and a significantly changed demographic at the school
SACS - Not a bad suggestion but again, not huge numbers across any sport
TAS - again not a bad suggestion but I dont see any GPS school handing back their membership badge (maybe High but it wouldnt be at their behest)
The Canberra Schools - now here is a good suggestion and there is definitely a feeling in Canberra that this would be a good thing. If GPS can schlep it up to Armidale (6 hours) and the ISA head over the hills to Orange (3-4) then Canberra isnt such a bad idea. All CAS schools have easy access to the M5 or M7 so we're talking a 3 hour trip. The only issue is the tight numbers that exits in Canberra. Removing even one school upsets the delicate balance of participating schools.

So for mine, the only reasonable options for expansion exist in the ISA and as previously mentioned, they may be perfectly happy with the set up they currently have.

 

[Greenwhiteblack]

Hello Waves
St.Gregory's College at Campbelltown. In the past, a traditional Rugby league school, but with increasing gentrification, it is now a bastion of aspirational Middle Class existence. In fact, its evaluation to a Middle Class status, places it in terms of outlook, values and Socio-Economic aspirations, very comfortably to mix with CAS and GPS Schools. It might still have Rugby League roots, in the Campbelltown area.But such a heritage, is now wearing thin, particularly amongst the Middle Class Families that now frequent this school. I believe they have 1200 Boys so depth will not be a problem. Because of its Rugby League connections, talented players should not be in short supply either.

Hopefully, parents, staff and the school's leadership will see where their true future lies. By embracing the one true sporting faith for Winter, that is Rugby Union. By purging, the dark side, from their school's past. They will see the "Light" and celebrate by singing the "World in Union". Such an exoticism is long overdue for St.Gregory's College.

Other schools could include Canberra Grammar, a very gentrified, professional Middle Class Environment. Yes a bit of travel, but no different than Queensland GPS, where travel is extensive. They don't have many Rugby Teams within the School, about three per age division. But that compares favourably with most CAS Schools, these days. Also, Marist College and St.Edmunds could come into consideration as well.

Other schools in the mix, could include St.Edwards at Gosford, they have 900 Boys, but also need a Rugby Union exoticism, as do Marcellan College, at Randwick. They and Waves, could become rivals, fighting out Catholic Rugby supremacy for the Eastern Suburbs. In time we may see Central Coast Grammar, expand in Numbers, together with Hunter Valley Grammar School Grammar as well as The Illawara Grammar School. Nor should we rule out Pittwater House, Kinross, The Cathedral School at Town Hall, TAS or even Oakhill Jumping Ship. So while some of these schools will need to grow in school numbers, they are located in Growth Areas such, as the Central Coast. Most already have Rugby, as a Winter Sport, be it small in numbers.

But does the CAS want to expand and travel.

what are you talking about distance travelled for Qld GPS schools? Toowoomba Grammar are only and hour 45minutes up the range from Brisbane and only 45 minutes from Ipswich, TSS are only 50 minutes down the M1 from Brisbane. All other GPS Brisbane based schools are with in a 15 drive of one and other. Thats no different than having to drive from Barker to Cranbrook or Waverley...

 

[The Running Game]

You forgot Doug Phillipson at 9 (clear best 9 in NSW rugby right now too) and Tom Livingstone who could slide in at both 6 and 7 in this team. There should definitely be more Barker in this team.

And I very much disagree. Barker are the clear favourites, not just in the CAS, but are the best team in NSW schoolboy rugby right now. Saw both schools go against Joeys.

Knox vs Joeys, Knox were dominated in every aspect of the game. Joeys were unlucky to not put an absolute number on Knox, with Knox stealing a few tries with some individual brilliance (intercept).

Barker vs Joeys, Joeys got rolled in the forwards (that is very hard to do by the way), and their backs put on an absolute defensive masterclass. Barker is the team to beat

Remember that Doug Phiillipson was a Kinross product!

 

[SkyBlue]

Remember that Doug Phiillipson was a Kinross product!

I knew he was a country boy but there you go.

 

[notreleasing]

I think many people find the first five trial games quite successful with more even matches but I think maybe it would be good to see them have more meaning.

This could look like flipping the season around,
Start with the 5 cas matches to get and declare your winner and ladder. To follow this teams get placed in pools or groups depending on how they finished in the season. For example group 1 may have the top 2 CAS teams, top 3 GPS schools and top 1 ISA school from their respective season. Then group 2 may the next ranked schools. Not sure what associations get preference on each group but i think this may be ok. You keep the tradition of the different competitions while putting importance on where you finish not just the 1st place or nothing. So being 3rd or 6th has a great difference for your second half of the season.

Secondly, the second half of the season could still have importance as you can be the winner of your group. Also teams that finished in low in the CAS, GPS or ISA competition have more competitive and even games while including the chance to win something. This concept rewards teams that perform well during their season and allow even quality games in the second half.

Free for feedback and ideas,
thanks

 

[WLF3]

You forgot Doug Phillipson at 9 (clear best 9 in NSW rugby right now too) and Tom Livingstone who could slide in at both 6 and 7 in this team. There should definitely be more Barker in this team.

And I very much disagree. Barker are the clear favourites, not just in the CAS, but are the best team in NSW schoolboy rugby right now. Saw both schools go against Joeys.

Knox vs Joeys, Knox were dominated in every aspect of the game. Joeys were unlucky to not put an absolute number on Knox, with Knox stealing a few tries with some individual brilliance (intercept).

Barker vs Joeys, Joeys got rolled in the forwards (that is very hard to do by the way), and their backs put on an absolute defensive masterclass. Barker is the team to beat

Didn't Scots beat Barker comfortably 22 - 10 ? The Waves no 9 is quite special.

 

[The Running Game]

Didn't Scots beat Barker comfortably 22 - 10 ? The Waves no 9 is quite special.

I stand to be corrected, however, I believe DP was out with a shoulder injury and has now returned with 1 or 2 games under his belt for Barker? Please correct if not the case gents.

 

[SkyBlue]

Didn't Scots beat Barker comfortably 22 - 10 ? The Waves no 9 is quite special.

Comfortably? No. They struggled. But with 8 Barker injuries? Yes. Key players too by the way. Also had to play 2nds flankers on the wing.

Barker is the team to beat.

 

[SkyBlue]

I stand to be corrected, however, I believe DP was out with a shoulder injury and has now returned with 1 or 2 games under his belt for Barker? Please correct if not the case gents.

This is the case. DP came back against Riverview, and played this Saturday against Trinity. Was injured in the Oakhill game. Him and 7 other Barker boys missed the Scots game.

 

[WLF3]

Comfortably? No. They struggled. But with 8 Barker injuries? Yes. Key players too by the way. Also had to play 2nds flankers on the wing.

Barker is the team to beat.

I think most teams have had multiple players out this season eg the Flu.
Scots had 5 out that day v Barker, 4 were also key players, and the team to beat, got beat!
They will also lose at Death Valley soon.

 

[SkyBlue]

I think most teams have had multiple players out this season eg the Flu.
Scots had 5 out that day v Barker, 4 were also key players, and the team to beat, got beat!
They will also lose at Death Valley soon.

According to the Scots lads (some bored schoolboys), they were missing a 'key line-out jumper.' No mention of these 5 absences. I think I'll take their word for it. Let's be honest Scots were not going to beat a healthy Barker team. Credit where credit is due though, they beat the team put in front of them so they did their job. Waverley is looking really good for that third place though!

Also, Barker's injury troubles are due to over-training. It is a constant issue. Happens every year with Barker. I have insider information that the coach got a talking to by the school because of the constant over-training. Seems like not much has changed.

 

[Black & White]

I like the thinking here Black and White but I'll offer some thoughts on why most of those options are unlikely (sorry to rain on your parade!):

St. Gregs - still has strong League ties and doesn't offer strength or numbers in other sports. I think only recently became a full member of ISA
St. Edwards - Independent school but no history of Saturday sport. That would be a MASSIVE cultural hurdle to overcome
Marcellin - diocesan school = low fees = no money to spent on Saturday sport (which also doesn't exist)
CCGS - Very small school. Co-ed but only one grade per age in Rugby. Not a like for like comparison in terms of team numbers each week
HVGS/TIGS - Not a bad suggestion but again, no Saturday sport culture
Pittwater House - not the school they once were in terms of sports participation and a significantly changed demographic at the school
SACS - Not a bad suggestion but again, not huge numbers across any sport
TAS - again not a bad suggestion but I dont see any GPS school handing back their membership badge (maybe High but it wouldnt be at their behest)
The Canberra Schools - now here is a good suggestion and there is definitely a feeling in Canberra that this would be a good thing. If GPS can schlep it up to Armidale (6 hours) and the ISA head over the hills to Orange (3-4) then Canberra isnt such a bad idea. All CAS schools have easy access to the M5 or M7 so we're talking a 3 hour trip. The only issue is the tight numbers that exits in Canberra. Removing even one school upsets the delicate balance of participating schools.

So for mine, the only reasonable options for expansion exist in the ISA and as previously mentioned, they may be perfectly happy with the set up they currently have.

Hello DaSchmooze
Thank you for your feed back, it is much appreciated.
Yes,I tend to support the idea, that we could integrate the Canberra Schools into CAS or ISA Systems, as being the most realistic. Apart from travel as a negative, these schools have established Rugby cultures. But as you suggest, it could unhinge playing numbers Canberra. I feel the four major Rugby playing schools, would have to join as a group. As to which associations they would join, that is difficult to predict. For instance,St Edmunds could play in the GPS. Based on their past achievements. Although, they would need to expand their team numbers, to be an attractive school, to be offered matches. Many GPS schools would not want to have, half their teams having byes.

Nevertheless, having the prestige of belonging to an elite sports association and rubbing shoulders with the like of Kings and Joeys. Could serve as an attraction, to aspirational parents in Canberra. This appeal could also serve as an attraction to the boys themselves who want to be identified with a Up Market Game. As John O'Neal described Rugby, A "top of the town Game". In this regard, the Public Services of Canberra could be drawn to the Game. Rugby is well supported by Public Service Departments, such as Defence, particularly amongst Army.
Again many thanks DaSchmooze for your ideas
Regards
B&W

 

[Black & White]

what are you talking about distance travelled for Qld GPS schools? Toowoomba Grammar are only and hour 45minutes up the range from Brisbane and only 45 minutes from Ipswich, TSS are only 50 minutes down the M1 from Brisbane. All other GPS Brisbane based schools are with in a 15 drive of one and other. Thats no different than having to drive from Barker to Cranbrook or Waverley...

Some schools in Sydney dislike travelling from the North Shore to the Inner City. So feelings and perceptions will vary.

 

[Tame Brumby]

The Canberra idea is interesting but I don't see if flying and would get strong push back from ACT rugby. The ACTJRU comp integrates schools and clubs into one competition, with the big rugby schools (Eddies, Marist, Daramalan) playing with the local clubs (including large, strong clubs like Tuggeranong and Wests), the regions (south coast, Cooma, Goulburn) and the the game, plucky upstarts from Canberra Grammar (my alma mater). To take out the big schools would gut a pretty successful comp.

 

[DaSchmooze]

The Canberra idea is interesting but I don't see if flying and would get strong push back from ACT rugby. The ACTJRU comp integrates schools and clubs into one competition, with the big rugby schools (Eddies, Marist, Daramalan) playing with the local clubs (including large, strong clubs like Tuggeranong and Wests), the regions (south coast, Cooma, Goulburn) and the the game, plucky upstarts from Canberra Grammar (my alma mater). To take out the big schools would gut a pretty successful comp.

Yes I suspect that would be the case. It's taken them a long while for all of them to "play nicely" with each other and there is certainly a delicate balance between them all.

 

[Snort]

I have an open mind on CAS expansion.

Trouble is, I don't think it would be the answer to Rugby's very specific issues, which are mismatches in the number of teams, and mismatches on the field in the games that do occur. This problem seems to be unique to Rugby: you don't get many blow-outs in (say) cricket, basketball or soccer. The reason, of course, is the nature of the game and its sheer physicality. The other sports aren't collision sports: match a 110-kg cricketer against an 80-kg cricketer, and it can still be very even.

So whatever the CAS does, all schools groupings still need to address the particular issues that Rugby raises.

 

[Waves]

You forgot Doug Phillipson at 9 (clear best 9 in NSW rugby right now too) and Tom Livingstone who could slide in at both 6 and 7 in this team. There should definitely be more Barker in this team.

And I very much disagree. Barker are the clear favourites, not just in the CAS, but are the best team in NSW schoolboy rugby right now. Saw both schools go against Joeys.

Knox vs Joeys, Knox were dominated in every aspect of the game. Joeys were unlucky to not put an absolute number on Knox, with Knox stealing a few tries with some individual brilliance (intercept).

Barker vs Joeys, Joeys got rolled in the forwards (that is very hard to do by the way), and their backs put on an absolute defensive masterclass. Barker is the team to beat

As much as the barker 9 is a key role in Barker, being the best 9 in the state could be controversial as you are missing the 9 from Riverview last year Dan Nelson who is in the making for having a high chance in the Gen Blue 9 jersey. But if you are strictly speaking about schoolboy players and not the general NSW then there are competitors such as the waves half back and the Newington half-back.

 

[DaSchmooze]

I have an open mind on CAS expansion.

Trouble is, I don't think it would be the answer to Rugby's very specific issues, which are mismatches in the number of teams, and mismatches on the field in the games that do occur. This problem seems to be unique to Rugby: you don't get many blow-outs in (say) cricket, basketball or soccer. The reason, of course, is the nature of the game and its sheer physicality. The other sports aren't collision sports: match a 110-kg cricketer against an 80-kg cricketer, and it can still be very even.

So whatever the CAS does, all schools groupings still need to address the particular issues that Rugby raises.

Yes at the end of the day, expansion needs to be seen through a very broad lense, not just Rugby. I dont know if there are any other CAS sports issues that could be rectified with having more schools play in it. For mine, the problem of mismatches is easily fixed but not palatable to the bosses. It's a uniquely Rugby problem as you've mentioned.

Have a look at how IGSA (girls) run their sport. There's 20+ schools and they all cant be in 1st grade and nor do they try. The best 8 schools make up first grade, then the next 8 in 2nd grade and so on down to 15th grade in the seniors (similar number in Juniors and then a dedicated Year 7 grade). If your school lacks strength in a sport, you're not compelled to cop a shellacking for no other reason other than there is no alternative. Some schools aim to be the best in every sport, some schools pick and choose based upon their resources, and the smaller schools are still catered for by having lower grades available to them.

Simple.

 

[The Running Game]

Yes at the end of the day, expansion needs to be seen through a very broad lense, not just Rugby. I dont know if there are any other CAS sports issues that could be rectified with having more schools play in it. For mine, the problem of mismatches is easily fixed but not palatable to the bosses. It's a uniquely Rugby problem as you've mentioned.

Have a look at how IGSA (girls) run their sport. There's 20+ schools and they all cant be in 1st grade and nor do they try. The best 8 schools make up first grade, then the next 8 in 2nd grade and so on down to 15th grade in the seniors (similar number in Juniors and then a dedicated Year 7 grade). If your school lacks strength in a sport, you're not compelled to cop a shellacking for no other reason other than there is no alternative. Some schools aim to be the best in every sport, some schools pick and choose based upon their resources, and the smaller schools are still catered for by having lower grades available to them.

Simple.

@DaSchmooze similar to IGSA, ISA have two divisions in rugby.

 

[DaSchmooze]

@DaSchmooze similar to IGSA, ISA have two divisions in rugby.

Yes correct - and based largely upon the ability to field similar team numbers, not necessarily the strength of the 1sts