CAS Rugby 2022

[Goosestep]

Was a strange survey, usually these things have a predetermined outcome that they are searching for endorsement on. The theme was CAS expansion so I don’t support that concept. I like the inter association games with gps schools, it generates a great level of interest and is quality rugby. I wouldn’t want an outcome where those games don’t happen going forward…. I’d much prefer consistently play 5 gps schools followed by 5 CAS schools rather than expanding the CAS to incorporate ISA schools.

“ incorporate ISA schools” tsk tsk how snobby ..

you realise the way you speak about ISA schools is exactly the same way some GPS people speak about your CAS schools .. how ironic

Improving Rugby should be the main goal .. the cream should rise to the top, no more hiding behind “associations “

 

[bring back rucking]

No one is hiding mate. Did you complete the survey? I’m not suggesting incorporating gps schools either as that will never happen. At the moment Knox plays against 4 or 5 GPS schools and either oakhill or someone else before the CAS comp starts giving it 10 meaningful games for the season. They have beaten all of the gps schools and lost to all of them over the past 5 or so years since the 2 round comp has been disbanded by both associations. It works well. The same happens for Waves and Barker. They are sensational games with big crowds. That’s the appropriate level. Alloys and either cranbrook or trinity (depending on the year) are not as strong as these and often play against GPS 2nds teams or other schools.

that’s the compromise. the GPS runs a thirds comp to cater for the 3 GPS schools that can’t compete anymore and the rest of the rugby program from 13s-1st XV runs to the same inter association 5 game round followed by individual comps.

I don’t see how “expanding the cas to incorporate other schools” adds more value than just matching strong rugby programs with strong rugby programs.

 

[DaSchmooze]

Hey, I just received a survey asking for my opinions on CAS sport. Everyone should pile in (as I did) and argue for a distinct Rugby competition, with divisions!

It might NOT be another 10 years before you have to revisit your old post Snort

 

[WLF3]

No one is hiding mate. Did you complete the survey? I’m not suggesting incorporating gps schools either as that will never happen. At the moment Knox plays against 4 or 5 GPS schools and either oakhill or someone else before the CAS comp starts giving it 10 meaningful games for the season. They have beaten all of the gps schools and lost to all of them over the past 5 or so years since the 2 round comp has been disbanded by both associations. It works well. The same happens for Waves and Barker. They are sensational games with big crowds. That’s the appropriate level. Alloys and either cranbrook or trinity (depending on the year) are not as strong as these and often play against GPS 2nds teams or other schools.

that’s the compromise. the GPS runs a thirds comp to cater for the 3 GPS schools that can’t compete anymore and the rest of the rugby program from 13s-1st XV runs to the same inter association 5 game round followed by individual comps.

I don’t see how “expanding the cas to incorporate other schools” adds more value than just matching strong rugby programs with strong rugby programs.

BBR,

As an old CAS boy, I suspect you may be as well, SNORT certainly is, I have 2 boys 1 going through Waverley now, and 1 left last year, so here's my view.

I am all for tradition but there comes a point when it doesn't make sense. I think the CAS has reached that point now. Like you, I seriously enjoy strong competitive games v the GPS, AND Oakhill etc. It wasn't that long ago when some of the GPS clan thought we, the CAS, were a joke, and if we ever played against a GPS school we would win DONUT, DUCK EGGS etc meaning 0. Well that didn't take long to backfire, eh Joker!

Now the reality is that there are a number of strong Rugby schools across GPS,CAS and ISA.
I have always been a strong supporter of a tiered comp that is graded, whilst still having a winner in your association, in that mix.

The real problem we have right now, as SNORT has been saying for years, is that there are 2 separate packs in the CAS, barring the very odd year.
Not only do some schools have no chance of competing, they also have so few teams, so Sports Masters have a hell of a job finding other schools to fill the gaps.

As Joker well knows, Joeys have had to deal with this forever, and a few other GPS schools have quite strong depth, but it is now an epidemic across multiple schools. eg last week Waves played Aloys, Aloys had 9 teams vs 23 Waves so Stanis sent up 9 teams and 5 Waves teams had a bye (no one to play). Further to that, only the respective A teams matched up and the scores were horrific, all the other Aloys teams played a lower Waves team. This is NO GOOD for any of the boys, either school, and this will reoccur when they play Knox and Barker. Trinity and Cranbrook have more teams but they typically also struggle to win against the other 3 schools. This is not a shot at Aloys, but it is what it is.

I would be happy for Oakhill and other current ISA schools to join our comp, or form a new named comp, but I would also like to have a tiered system of promotion and relegation with ALL the stronger schools including the GPS. I think this is how the New Zealand schools system works, and that country does ok at Rugby and retains a lot of it's home grown school talent, we don't!

The other issue which often is forgotten is safety and mismatches in strength, speed, ability etc can surely only make things more unsafe.

Enough said, I will now duck for cover.

 

[bring back rucking]

I agree with you but the survey was about expanding the CAS. I don’t think that’s the solution. The problem is specifically a rugby one. NSW rugby sat down with all of the sport masters from the 3 associations individually 4 years ago in an attempt to take the temp of a combined competition for rugby which got pushback from some and eagerness from others.

there’s room in the calendar for a total of 10-12 games with various trophies on offer. Your own association, a top tier trophy and a second tier trophy… the semantics of that can be worked out but without keeping traditions you won’t get buy in. Newington moving to co-Ed in the future will cause them depth issues on the rugby field, shore have had a resurgence this year after being tagged as heading down the path of grammar… barker are fielding 2 teams in the 13s this year so it’s all a moving feast….

 

[WLF3]

I agree with you but the survey was about expanding the CAS. I don’t think that’s the solution. The problem is specifically a rugby one. NSW rugby sat down with all of the sport masters from the 3 associations individually 4 years ago in an attempt to take the temp of a combined competition for rugby which got pushback from some and eagerness from others.

there’s room in the calendar for a total of 10-12 games with various trophies on offer. Your own association, a top tier trophy and a second tier trophy… the semantics of that can be worked out but without keeping traditions you won’t get buy in. Newington moving to co-Ed in the future will cause them depth issues on the rugby field, shore have had a resurgence this year after being tagged as heading down the path of grammar… barker are fielding 2 teams in the 13s this year so it’s all a moving feast….

Yes it's a Rugby issue but that shouldn't stop a reconfiguring so that equality is better matched up for all the reasons I mentioned.
That also doesn't mean everything else needs to change within the associations.

I also wasn't saying an expansion of the CAS, I was saying, re-align schools of similar ability, given the varied Rugby focus given by the relevant schools. So the number of schools in a comp will match the 10-12 weeks of a Rugby season. You could also end it with 2 semi finals and a GF to resolve the best team, an issue which has been raised many times over decades. Shute Shield etc does this, it is not a league idea.

I am also aware of this meeting a few years ago, I believe that things have further deteriorated since, and often these types of structural changes take several attempts as time goes by and things change. You also need schools, and headmasters etc, who approach this with an open mind. Suggest this was never in play at that time.

Like Snort, but for not as long, I have echoed these thoughts several times in this forum, won't do it again, but, as things currently stand, I believe in the concept.

Over....

 

[DaSchmooze]

BBR,

As an old CAS boy, I suspect you may be as well, SNORT certainly is, I have 2 boys 1 going through Waverley now, and 1 left last year, so here's my view.

I am all for tradition but there comes a point when it doesn't make sense. I think the CAS has reached that point now. Like you, I seriously enjoy strong competitive games v the GPS, AND Oakhill etc. It wasn't that long ago when some of the GPS clan thought we, the CAS, were a joke, and if we ever played against a GPS school we would win DONUT, DUCK EGGS etc meaning 0. Well that didn't take long to backfire, eh Joker!

Now the reality is that there are a number of strong Rugby schools across GPS,CAS and ISA.
I have always been a strong supporter of a tiered comp that is graded, whilst still having a winner in your association, in that mix.

The real problem we have right now, as SNORT has been saying for years, is that there are 2 separate packs in the CAS, barring the very odd year.
Not only do some schools have no chance of competing, they also have so few teams, so Sports Masters have a hell of a job finding other schools to fill the gaps.

As Joker well knows, Joeys have had to deal with this forever, and a few other GPS schools have quite strong depth, but it is now an epidemic across multiple schools. eg last week Waves played Aloys, Aloys had 9 teams vs 23 Waves so Stanis sent up 9 teams and 5 Waves teams had a bye (no one to play). Further to that, only the respective A teams matched up and the scores were horrific, all the other Aloys teams played a lower Waves team. This is NO GOOD for any of the boys, either school, and this will reoccur when they play Knox and Barker. Trinity and Cranbrook have more teams but they typically also struggle to win against the other 3 schools. This is not a shot at Aloys, but it is what it is.

I would be happy for Oakhill and other current ISA schools to join our comp, or form a new named comp, but I would also like to have a tiered system of promotion and relegation with ALL the stronger schools including the GPS. I think this is how the New Zealand schools system works, and that country does ok at Rugby and retains a lot of it's home grown school talent, we don't!

The other issue which often is forgotten is safety and mismatches in strength, speed, ability etc can surely only make things more unsafe.

Enough said, I will now duck for cover.

I would be keen to hear from an Aloys person what their thoughts are about this. Has there been a catalyst for this decline? What's the air/mood in the school about this?

 

[bring back rucking]

Yes it's a Rugby issue but that shouldn't stop a reconfiguring so that equality is better matched up for all the reasons I mentioned.
That also doesn't mean everything else needs to change within the associations.

I also wasn't saying an expansion of the CAS, I was saying, re-align schools of similar ability, given the varied Rugby focus given by the relevant schools. So the number of schools in a comp will match the 10-12 weeks of a Rugby season. You could also end it with 2 semi finals and a GF to resolve the best team, an issue which has been raised many times over decades. Shute Shield etc does this, it is not a league idea.

I am also aware of this meeting a few years ago, I believe that things have further deteriorated since, and often these types of structural changes take several attempts as time goes by and things change. You also need schools, and headmasters etc, who approach this with an open mind. Suggest this was never in play at that time.

Like Snort, but for not as long, I have echoed these thoughts several times in this forum, won't do it again, but, as things currently stand, I believe in the concept.

Over....

I think we are on the same page wlf. My original comment was on the wording of the survey itself on the expansion of the CAS to incorporate more schools. I don’t think that needs to happen. I have also advocated for years that the rugby competition should change. If the survey addressed rugby specifically then it may have been more meaningful. But I think the other sports, particularly summer, are well balanced.

I spoke with one of the NSW rugby guys at the time who was charged with driving these discussions and the feedback was that it was going to be a slow grind and the majority of sportsmasters liked the idea of a larger format (whilst maintaining their own traditional round) but ultimately it came down to what style of headmaster was at the school at the time. Some were quite interested in pursuing it and some had absolutely no interest… surprisingly it was not the ones you would expect driving or blocking change.

 

[bring back rucking]

I would be keen to hear from an Aloys person what their thoughts are about this. Has there been a catalyst for this decline? What's the air/mood in the school about this?

Agree, would be very interested to hear from someone from both Aloys and Cranbrook

 

[FoleyBealeFolau]

Hey, I just received a survey asking for my opinions on CAS sport. Everyone should pile in (as I did) and argue for a distinct Rugby competition, with divisions!

I too received this email I was more urged to put forward a possible attempt at a finals series in the CAS competition next year.
Thoughts on that?

 

[Waves]

If the CAS comp should be expanded (which is debatable) what schools should get added in from other comps. Also as I'm reading the replies that have been getting posted about making division 1 comp etc what schools should be in those divisions and how would they work? Keen to know your opinions!

 

[bring back rucking]

Summarily, I too received this email I was more urged to put forward a possible attempt at a finals series in the CAS competition next year.
Thoughts on that?

Assume you are proposing this for 1sts and 2nds? Hard logistically with games on the same stairway for the wider opens and 13-16s… although 16a’s has become quite a significant team over recent years so I’m sure they would be up for the same treatment. I’m still a fan of majority my school v your school (14 and 15s away) where possible, ultimately leads to more kids staying back to watch the firsts therefore building school spirit and attracting further rugby players

 

[Black & White]

If the CAS comp should be expanded (which is debatable) what schools should get added in from other comps. Also as I'm reading the replies that have been getting posted about making division 1 comp etc what schools should be in those divisions and how would they work? Keen to know your opinions!

Hello Waves
St.Gregory's College at Campbelltown. In the past, a traditional Rugby league school, but with increasing gentrification, it is now a bastion of aspirational Middle Class existence. In fact, its evaluation to a Middle Class status, places it in terms of outlook, values and Socio-Economic aspirations, very comfortably to mix with CAS and GPS Schools. It might still have Rugby League roots, in the Campbelltown area.But such a heritage, is now wearing thin, particularly amongst the Middle Class Families that now frequent this school. I believe they have 1200 Boys so depth will not be a problem. Because of its Rugby League connections, talented players should not be in short supply either.

Hopefully, parents, staff and the school's leadership will see where their true future lies. By embracing the one true sporting faith for Winter, that is Rugby Union. By purging, the dark side, from their school's past. They will see the "Light" and celebrate by singing the "World in Union". Such an exoticism is long overdue for St.Gregory's College.

Other schools could include Canberra Grammar, a very gentrified, professional Middle Class Environment. Yes a bit of travel, but no different than Queensland GPS, where travel is extensive. They don't have many Rugby Teams within the School, about three per age division. But that compares favourably with most CAS Schools, these days. Also, Marist College and St.Edmunds could come into consideration as well.

Other schools in the mix, could include St.Edwards at Gosford, they have 900 Boys, but also need a Rugby Union exoticism, as do Marcellan College, at Randwick. They and Waves, could become rivals, fighting out Catholic Rugby supremacy for the Eastern Suburbs. In time we may see Central Coast Grammar, expand in Numbers, together with Hunter Valley Grammar School Grammar as well as The Illawara Grammar School. Nor should we rule out Pittwater House, Kinross, The Cathedral School at Town Hall, TAS or even Oakhill Jumping Ship. So while some of these schools will need to grow in school numbers, they are located in Growth Areas such, as the Central Coast. Most already have Rugby, as a Winter Sport, be it small in numbers.

But does the CAS want to expand and travel.

 

[DaSchmooze]

If the CAS comp should be expanded (which is debatable) what schools should get added in from other comps. Also as I'm reading the replies that have been getting posted about making division 1 comp etc what schools should be in those divisions and how would they work? Keen to know your opinions!

It does kind of make the assumption that there's a waiting list of Independent schools simply biding their time before they go to CAS. Given the shabby treatment that Pius and Pats experienced the last time expansion was on the cards, it may be easily said than done. ISA was borne out of a lack of competition for the "left over" (for want of a better phrase) schools that were told there was no room at the inn for them in CAS.

I suppose the reasons for expansion need to be fully articulated. As much as I would like it to be, it would be highly unlikely that it is purely Rugby driven. Any candidate school would need to demonstrate proven ability and competitiveness across the full CAS sport offering.

Another curve ball could be the inclusion of more co-ed schools to address the sporting needs of Barker and soon to be Cranbrook girls.

 

[Hankspank]

Hello Waves
St.Gregory's College at Campbelltown. In the past, a traditional Rugby league school, but with increasing gentrification, it is now a bastion of aspirational Middle Class existence. In fact, its evaluation to a Middle Class status, places it in terms of outlook, values and Socio-Economic aspirations, very comfortably to mix with CAS and GPS Schools. It might still have Rugby League roots, in the Campbelltown area.But such a heritage, is now wearing thin, particularly amongst the Middle Class Families that now frequent this school. I believe they have 1200 Boys so depth will not be a problem. Because of its Rugby League connections, talented players should not be in short supply either.

Hopefully, parents, staff and the school's leadership will see where their true future lies. By embracing the one true sporting faith for Winter, that is Rugby Union. By purging, the dark side, from their school's past. They will see the "Light" and celebrate by singing the "World in Union". Such an exoticism is long overdue for St.Gregory's College.

Other schools could include Canberra Grammar, a very gentrified, professional Middle Class Environment. Yes a bit of travel, but no different than Queensland GPS, where travel is extensive. They don't have many Rugby Teams within the School, about three per age division. But that compares favourably with most CAS Schools, these days. Also, Marist College and St.Edmunds could come into consideration as well.

Other schools in the mix, could include St.Edwards at Gosford, they have 900 Boys, but also need a Rugby Union exoticism, as do Marcellan College, at Randwick. They and Waves, could become rivals, fighting out Catholic Rugby supremacy for the Eastern Suburbs. In time we may see Central Coast Grammar, expand in Numbers, together with Hunter Valley Grammar School Grammar as well as The Illawara Grammar School. Nor should we rule out Pittwater House, Kinross, The Cathedral School at Town Hall, TAS or even Oakhill Jumping Ship. So while some of these schools will need to grow in school numbers, they are located in Growth Areas such, as the Central Coast. Most already have Rugby, as a Winter Sport, be it small in numbers.

But does the CAS want to expand and travel.

There's as much chance of St Gregs switching more to union than league as there is of me running out for the Wallabies. The league heritage in that school is extensive.

 

[Waves]

It does kind of make the assumption that there's a waiting list of Independent schools simply biding their time before they go to CAS. Given the shabby treatment that Pius and Pats experienced the last time expansion was on the cards, it may be easily said than done. ISA was borne out of a lack of competition for the "left over" (for want of a better phrase) schools that were told there was no room at the inn for them in CAS.

I suppose the reasons for expansion need to be fully articulated. As much as I would like it to be, it would be highly unlikely that it is purely Rugby driven. Any candidate school would need to demonstrate proven ability and competitiveness across the full CAS sport offering.

Another curve ball could be the inclusion of more co-ed schools to address the sporting needs of Barker and soon to be Cranbrook girls.

I do see your idea in the expansion and I think it could be healthy as it would make a diverse way of comp. A good example of this is st Pius and Aloysius seem to have a close score when they play. Perhaps schools like Aloys and Trinity could have closer competitors to versing schools such as Auggies and Pius. Again just an example but it could add to these schools enjoying and growing rugby at their schools. Keen to hear your thoughts.

 

[DaSchmooze]

There's as much chance of St Gregs switching more to union than league as there is of me running out for the Wallabies. The league heritage in that school is extensive.

Yes I tend to agree. I like the logic but I think the reality is significantly different.

 

[SkyBlue]

Another curve ball could be the inclusion of more co-ed schools to address the sporting needs of Barker and soon to be Cranbrook girls.

This is much needed.

 

[SkyBlue]

Don’t worry. Rod Skellet will jump on soon and claim all 15 should be from Barker.

And a tip; Knox are the team to beat. Not Barker.

You forgot Doug Phillipson at 9 (clear best 9 in NSW rugby right now too) and Tom Livingstone who could slide in at both 6 and 7 in this team. There should definitely be more Barker in this team.

And I very much disagree. Barker are the clear favourites, not just in the CAS, but are the best team in NSW schoolboy rugby right now. Saw both schools go against Joeys.

Knox vs Joeys, Knox were dominated in every aspect of the game. Joeys were unlucky to not put an absolute number on Knox, with Knox stealing a few tries with some individual brilliance (intercept).

Barker vs Joeys, Joeys got rolled in the forwards (that is very hard to do by the way), and their backs put on an absolute defensive masterclass. Barker is the team to beat

 

[DaSchmooze]

This is much needed.

The only issue here though is that there are no co-ed schools that would be of a size, standard and have a Saturday sport program that Barker girls don't already play in ISA.