William88
Syd Malcolm (24)
Luckily for Waverley it was because of the relationship Cornish had with Randwick that Ledesma came to training. Not a sign of better resources maybe, but just different links in the community?
CAS Rugby 2017
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Luckily for Waverley it was because of the relationship Cornish had with Randwick that Ledesma came to training. Not a sign of better resources maybe, but just different links in the community?
S
sidelineview
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Not to mention the co-coaching of teacher/coach Scott Coleman a former State front rower.
Rich_E
Ron Walden (29)
By Helu clone do you mean exceptional running game? Will be a tuff ask. The yards Helu made against NZ schools probably exceeded some of the backs.
White line fever
Fred Wood (13)
SDW, Set pieces are important BUT I think today's game is driven by the breakdown (speed) imo. The wicks were always the best at this not necessarily the set pieces and I am a Beasties supporter.
There are GPS supporters who cannot wait to see Knox and Waverley slaughtered by their teams, this is completely evident in some people's comments and condescending "funny captions", sad but true.
As long as our teams are fit, and I mean really fit, these 2 schools will win many games against the geeps, and I don't mean just the firsts.
When reviewing the results let's look at the A's in particular in the various age groups, this will tell the depth and the future.
Think the Waverley team this year boasts some seriously good talent, can't speak for Knox, barker etc, but I also hope so.
50 point drubbings will not happen, in fact I am sick of this pessimistic approach, it wasn't that long ago when a loss to a GPS school was a failure, we expected to win all games. Can't wait for the responses, but in the end, the season results WILL say it all!
The Honey Badger
Jim Lenehan (48)
Yep, they will want props with plenty of `Go Forward ' the will carry the ball over the advantage line.
I think in schoolboys, if a prop can hold the scrum enough to win your own ball, that's all the coach wants. Mobility and ball carry ability is more important.
Rich_E
Ron Walden (29)
I'm a GPS supporter and I hope Waverley and Knox do well in the matches against GPS teams in 2017. Consistent 50 point drubbings don't do anyone any good.
S
sidelineview
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The assumption that CAS teams wont be competitive with GPS teams next season in the 5 ''trial'' matches has been made by some GPS people on the AAGPS forum.
It wont make any difference to the results but they've had some fun with it.
GPS folk like to feel superior; that's a gimme, but CAS vs GPS Rep results in recent years for Opens and U16s don't support that assumption of superiority.
However, bringing it back to individual schools is a different matter. The difference in ''recruitment'' policies between GPS and CAS schools is just one factor to consider. It's not like the good old days; the landscape has changed due to the erosion of rugby numbers through the popularity of soccer and AFL.
I'm not too sure how strong Knox will be next season but it looks like Waverley will have another strong team. The two may be evenly matched again. It will be interesting to see how they aim up against the GPS schools.
It will be a rarity to see Waverley people barracking for Knox against GPS teams and vice versa.
I expect Waverley to perform well; they will have a particularly strong forward pack and will be well coached again.
There will at least be some serious bragging rights up for grabs particularly on these forums and the CAS/GPS banter should be entertaining.
Any wins by Waverley or Knox will be sweeter for CAS supporters than wins by GPS schools for GPS people because it will be expected that they only need to go through the motions to secure an easy win. The cocky roosters will be out in force.
My thoughts are that the rugby fortunes of a school like Waverley are cyclical and given the erosion of rugby numbers through soccer and AFL over the years, I have my doubts that they can sustain a strong form of competitiveness year in year out.
However, it is what it is and next season will be interesting with some predicted egg on GPS faces.
It wont make any difference to the results but they've had some fun with it.
GPS folk like to feel superior; that's a gimme, but CAS vs GPS Rep results in recent years for Opens and U16s don't support that assumption of superiority.
However, bringing it back to individual schools is a different matter. The difference in ''recruitment'' policies between GPS and CAS schools is just one factor to consider. It's not like the good old days; the landscape has changed due to the erosion of rugby numbers through the popularity of soccer and AFL.
I'm not too sure how strong Knox will be next season but it looks like Waverley will have another strong team. The two may be evenly matched again. It will be interesting to see how they aim up against the GPS schools.
It will be a rarity to see Waverley people barracking for Knox against GPS teams and vice versa.
I expect Waverley to perform well; they will have a particularly strong forward pack and will be well coached again.
There will at least be some serious bragging rights up for grabs particularly on these forums and the CAS/GPS banter should be entertaining.
Any wins by Waverley or Knox will be sweeter for CAS supporters than wins by GPS schools for GPS people because it will be expected that they only need to go through the motions to secure an easy win. The cocky roosters will be out in force.
My thoughts are that the rugby fortunes of a school like Waverley are cyclical and given the erosion of rugby numbers through soccer and AFL over the years, I have my doubts that they can sustain a strong form of competitiveness year in year out.
However, it is what it is and next season will be interesting with some predicted egg on GPS faces.
White line fever
Fred Wood (13)
I think we all appreciate Rich_E's support.
He is right,big wins aren't good for anyone, and I don't expect too many of these. What we want are some great games, and a stronger competition going forward.
Sideline, great overview, you are right in your assessment.
I also believe all schools are typically cyclical, otherwise the same school would win all the time, and a lot of that can revolve around the kids that turn up in a particular year, eg from year 7.
In year 6 this year, at Waverley, there were 3 wallaby sons in the junior school rugby A's, and guess what, the team was unbeaten, including comfortably beating several strong GPS schools.
In fact that year, the year below, year 5, and year 7 (13a's) were all undefeated, they just have some serious talent in these 3 years.
So we should go ok down the track!
On the flip side I think our 15's and 16's will do it tough against all sides, such is the cyclical nature of rugby success.
Our 1st xv will be strong.
I am sure the geeps teams will all be strong and I hope to see some seriously enjoyable rugby!
He is right,big wins aren't good for anyone, and I don't expect too many of these. What we want are some great games, and a stronger competition going forward.
Sideline, great overview, you are right in your assessment.
I also believe all schools are typically cyclical, otherwise the same school would win all the time, and a lot of that can revolve around the kids that turn up in a particular year, eg from year 7.
In year 6 this year, at Waverley, there were 3 wallaby sons in the junior school rugby A's, and guess what, the team was unbeaten, including comfortably beating several strong GPS schools.
In fact that year, the year below, year 5, and year 7 (13a's) were all undefeated, they just have some serious talent in these 3 years.
So we should go ok down the track!
On the flip side I think our 15's and 16's will do it tough against all sides, such is the cyclical nature of rugby success.
Our 1st xv will be strong.
I am sure the geeps teams will all be strong and I hope to see some seriously enjoyable rugby!
S
sidelineview
Guest
I think we all appreciate Rich_E's support.
Support of what? Hoping that the assumption of "consistent" 50 point drubbings wont occur? where did that come from?
I also believe all schools are typically cyclical, otherwise the same school would win all the time, and a lot of that can revolve around the kids that turn up in a particular year, eg from year 7.
You're neglecting to factor in how GPS schools in general, bolster their rugby strength in the Opens as compared to CAS schools.
It's been mentioned ad nauseum that Waverley do not recruit and therefore are subject to the cyclical factor more than GPS schools who do ''recruit''.
Support of what? Hoping that the assumption of "consistent" 50 point drubbings wont occur? where did that come from?
I also believe all schools are typically cyclical, otherwise the same school would win all the time, and a lot of that can revolve around the kids that turn up in a particular year, eg from year 7.
You're neglecting to factor in how GPS schools in general, bolster their rugby strength in the Opens as compared to CAS schools.
It's been mentioned ad nauseum that Waverley do not recruit and therefore are subject to the cyclical factor more than GPS schools who do ''recruit''.
SonnyDillWilliams
Nev Cottrell (35)
I think everyone is too caught up on the recruitment thing.
And while maybe GPS supporters are cocky... I think CAS supporters might be a bit optimistic
On recruitment .... Ok yes, in recent years some of Waverley best junior school players have been lost to other schools ... mostly $cots... but also to Joeys, to Trinity and even now Knox
I could list some notables ... but that is for another thread
Curious to know if the 3 current year 6 Waverley kids will be in Waverley in Year 7 (2017?)?
I think one of the things the CAS optimists are missing is the difference in training
Waverley trains twice a week ... and that is weather permitting ... particularly for teams outside of the 1sts
whereas scots have unless I am mistaken something like 5 scheduled sessions ... and
this "commitment" (many would argue it is an excessive commitment) has been a big part of them closing the gap on the likes of Joeys (at least in the 1sts)
so along the lines of Sun Tzu's "every battle is won or lost, before it is started"
you would have to be niave to think Waverley has a strong chance against the heavyweights, when the big boys are training twice as much, on their non council regulated grounds
so while Knox probably trains a lot more than twice a week ... and does have even flood lit training facilities .... it could be lambs to the slaughter, unless CAS schools are prepared to up their game
for those looking back to the glory days when Waverley did occasionally dust up a Joeys, I think you have to remember who the headmaster was back then ... so unless Waverley are planning on bringing back say Hutch from Auggies ... I can't see a return to the Wallace era
call me negative, but going on recent prior year results, Waverley's best chance is against the likes of Shore and whoever is in the middle of the GPS pack in 2017... Newington?
And while maybe GPS supporters are cocky... I think CAS supporters might be a bit optimistic
On recruitment .... Ok yes, in recent years some of Waverley best junior school players have been lost to other schools ... mostly $cots... but also to Joeys, to Trinity and even now Knox
I could list some notables ... but that is for another thread
Curious to know if the 3 current year 6 Waverley kids will be in Waverley in Year 7 (2017?)?
I think one of the things the CAS optimists are missing is the difference in training
Waverley trains twice a week ... and that is weather permitting ... particularly for teams outside of the 1sts
whereas scots have unless I am mistaken something like 5 scheduled sessions ... and
this "commitment" (many would argue it is an excessive commitment) has been a big part of them closing the gap on the likes of Joeys (at least in the 1sts)
so along the lines of Sun Tzu's "every battle is won or lost, before it is started"
you would have to be niave to think Waverley has a strong chance against the heavyweights, when the big boys are training twice as much, on their non council regulated grounds
so while Knox probably trains a lot more than twice a week ... and does have even flood lit training facilities .... it could be lambs to the slaughter, unless CAS schools are prepared to up their game
for those looking back to the glory days when Waverley did occasionally dust up a Joeys, I think you have to remember who the headmaster was back then ... so unless Waverley are planning on bringing back say Hutch from Auggies ... I can't see a return to the Wallace era
call me negative, but going on recent prior year results, Waverley's best chance is against the likes of Shore and whoever is in the middle of the GPS pack in 2017... Newington?
White line fever
Fred Wood (13)
Sideline,
I certainly didn't read Rich_E's comments like you're suggesting, in fact quite the opposite, he was hoping for good contests!
I am not convinced that its recruitment that is always the winning factor, in fact I think that is BS, I think its the training, number of boys playing/depth in the GPS schools that delivers consistently strong teams. Rarely does 1 or 2 players win you a comp but rather a team effort.
So I also don't believe because Waverley doesn't recruit this is prime reason for its ups and downs.
In fact I hope we never ever recruit, so that when we win it's from home grown talent!
I am good friends with a gentleman who lets say was at the top of the sports program at a local GPS school, and he is not from such a background.
So no biased affiliation.
His comment to me recently was that if his school consistently had the talent that roles up at Waverley year in - year out, then no-one would ever beat us.
he believes its not talent we lack but typically the training resource difference that makes the difference. The school he refers to won the GPS comp this year without a bunch of super stars, point proven.
I think we now have a brilliant opens coaching team, and a solid home grown/no imports playing roster, and we won the comp last year!
I certainly didn't read Rich_E's comments like you're suggesting, in fact quite the opposite, he was hoping for good contests!
I am not convinced that its recruitment that is always the winning factor, in fact I think that is BS, I think its the training, number of boys playing/depth in the GPS schools that delivers consistently strong teams. Rarely does 1 or 2 players win you a comp but rather a team effort.
So I also don't believe because Waverley doesn't recruit this is prime reason for its ups and downs.
In fact I hope we never ever recruit, so that when we win it's from home grown talent!
I am good friends with a gentleman who lets say was at the top of the sports program at a local GPS school, and he is not from such a background.
So no biased affiliation.
His comment to me recently was that if his school consistently had the talent that roles up at Waverley year in - year out, then no-one would ever beat us.
he believes its not talent we lack but typically the training resource difference that makes the difference. The school he refers to won the GPS comp this year without a bunch of super stars, point proven.
I think we now have a brilliant opens coaching team, and a solid home grown/no imports playing roster, and we won the comp last year!
S
sidelineview
Guest
Recruitment is a factor that can't be ignored but it is not the sum total of the equation.
And one or two players can make a huge difference to a team. As much as Waverley played strongly as a team last season, how do you think they would have gone without say, Jackson Mohi and Tyzac Jordan?
The Waverley 2nd XV team narrowly lost its last game last season to miss out on the Premiership because they had several players missing. In my opinion, they would have won had Brooklyn Hardaker or Marco Bell been available. One or two players.
The Opens coaching at Waverley was very impressive last season as was the depth. However, they probably fall behind some other schools with the coaching of the younger age groups. Sometimes you get what you get with teacher/coaches.
Waverley train in the gym if Queens Park is washed out and have had a very good strength and fitness summer programme running in recent years.
It depends on the culture of any given team as well. Last season, after receiving a razzing from the coaches at the start of the season, the 1st XV players got together and made a commitment to put the work in and to do extras and it paid off with their overall fitness, camaraderie and commitment on the field.
It may be true that Waverley's best chance may be against teams in the bottom half of the GPS comp, but it maybe they'll spring some surprises as well. They've got a committed rugby convener in John McCoy and two smart cookies in coaches Cornish and Coleman. They'll be crossing the Ts and dotting the Is as far as preparation is concerned.
And one or two players can make a huge difference to a team. As much as Waverley played strongly as a team last season, how do you think they would have gone without say, Jackson Mohi and Tyzac Jordan?
The Waverley 2nd XV team narrowly lost its last game last season to miss out on the Premiership because they had several players missing. In my opinion, they would have won had Brooklyn Hardaker or Marco Bell been available. One or two players.
The Opens coaching at Waverley was very impressive last season as was the depth. However, they probably fall behind some other schools with the coaching of the younger age groups. Sometimes you get what you get with teacher/coaches.
Waverley train in the gym if Queens Park is washed out and have had a very good strength and fitness summer programme running in recent years.
It depends on the culture of any given team as well. Last season, after receiving a razzing from the coaches at the start of the season, the 1st XV players got together and made a commitment to put the work in and to do extras and it paid off with their overall fitness, camaraderie and commitment on the field.
It may be true that Waverley's best chance may be against teams in the bottom half of the GPS comp, but it maybe they'll spring some surprises as well. They've got a committed rugby convener in John McCoy and two smart cookies in coaches Cornish and Coleman. They'll be crossing the Ts and dotting the Is as far as preparation is concerned.
White line fever
Fred Wood (13)
Agree!
Rich_E
Ron Walden (29)
Thanks WLF. Spot on. I am hoping for good contests. And for a whole bunch of reasons.
But I am also expecting close contests.
It's been noted that some people have had some fun at the expense of CAS recently over in the GPS thread. And I too have participated.
While I can't speak for everyone, I reckon it is just that. Some fun. Not to be taken too seriously.
I have lots of respect for the CAS teams and players and I wish them all the best in the trials and comp games in 2017.
The challenge for Waverley and Knox will be how they go playing games like the ones between themselves in 2016, week in week out. It will test their depth. But i totally expect they will rise to the occasion and do well.
Cheers
White line fever
Fred Wood (13)
Rich_E,
I am sure you are right, and I am sure we all want a bigger stronger comp one day that show cases fantastic footy. Whilst Knox and Waverley are the first to make the big leap, I hope more schools eventually join in for the future of school boy rugby.
Yes there has been some funny things said in the "öther" thread, and they are in writing, it will be fun to return fire one day.
But as you know, it all has to start somewhere!
S
sidelineview
Guest
I'm sure we all want to realistic as well. I'm also sure not everyone agrees with you and hasn't from day one of this discussion.
I think Waverley will be be competitive next season, but I've said it from the start and I'll say it again; I dont think they will be competitive year in year out in a GPS comp.
Things dont look good for them for the next couple of years after next season'that's when you could confidently predict 50 point drubbings. And how will they fix it? They wont recruit as some GPS schools will so therein lies the disparity. They will rely on the cyclic factor.
Will any rugby authorities assist Waverley to attract better payers to the school? Will the school change its culture?
Wishing for a bigger stronger comp that showcases great rugby etc etc is all well and good but the competition will need to be fairly even.
The only way that will happen is if it becomes Divisional with relegation and promotion.
Azzuri
Trevor Allan (34)
Bravo SLV.!!!!.... hopefully next year's "halfway house comp" won't be repeated in 2018.
Bring on the divisionalised structure with promotion and relegation for 2018 and broaden the comp to include the other school associations beyond AAGPS and CAS.
BTW.... the constant wanging in other posts about AAGPS recruitment of players via scholarship is a bit tiresome. Such schemes are not necessarily a competitive advantage. It's well known that such arrangements exist in CAS's own backyard (e.g Trinity and Cranbrook etc) and recent history evidences that it doesn't guarantee performance.
S
sidelineview
Guest
It doesn't bother me who recruits through scholarships; it is what it is and if it's part of a school's culture to do so and that school has the available funds then so be it.
However I know Waverley don't, therefore there's a disparity should they continue to compete in this new GPS/CAS ''trial'' competition or whatever it's called, on a long term basis. I recall you mentioning this factor in one of your earlier posts as one reason why this hybrid trial/comp format wont be sustainable.
It's only one factor but its significant. School numbers is another factor.
A school like Waverley is on the low end of the scale as far as fees charged; that's a fact. Part of the Knox/Waverley banter in their rugby rivalry is the ''working class vs the silvertails'' thing. It's only banter but still there is a big difference in fees charged, resources available and student numbers. Knox are very serious about their rugby but Waverley still manages to be very competitive in a good year.
Waverley are the underdogs against Knox, as CAS are the underdogs against GPS.
But how does Knox grammar compare with GPS schools in general? They'd be closer in comparison than Waverley.
For Waverley to step up to be like GPS schools they would need to change its culture and given all the different factors in the equation I doubt it. What used to happen in the good old days doesn't count now.
A lot of changes would need to be made to compare apples with apples.
Therefore, in a proposed expanded super comp, a divisional format with relegation and promotion sounds reasonable. And a return to a fair dinkum two-round comp ......
S
sidelineview
Guest
I was only referring to Waverley, no other CAS school; and its only one factor in the equation but a significant one.
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