CAS Rugby 2014

[Inside Shoulder]

The ref acted as a result of the touch judges report and as far as I'm aware he was right. In the last minute of the game Knox were awarded a penalty within kicking distance. The kid who moved in to take the kick was a fresh replacement with a completely clean jersey on and must have been a good goal kicker, but he was the 15th player on the field for Knox. Waverley and Knox each had a player yellow carded and both should have had 14 players on the field.
The ref reversed the decision, Waverley kicked it out and then the ref blew the full time whistle.
Game over . some Knox people blew up but Waverley people were busy celebrating.

Just to confirm the law is

so the right outcome was achieved

 

[rtd32]

You are right in saying that where they spend their money is their business, but they are part of an association so it has the potential to impact on others. Those of us whose schools choose not to go down that path should be free to point out the flaws in such an approach too rugby when it doesn't produce the results they are looking for.
It's a key issue for the CAS to see whether throwing money at an issue 'fixes' it - if other schools go down that path then it has the potential to destroy the competition by creating a group of haves and another of have nots.
That's why I think Saturday's result was an important one for the CAS as a whole - it may cause people to think that money doesn't necessarily equate to success and perhaps a level playing field can be maintained by avoiding the professionalisation of the sport. What a great advertisement for the game to think that schools who don't throw money around can match it with those that do. Personally I think it is a very important issue to be discussed on a blog like this. If schools don't feel comfortable having those they play against commenting on their approach in a measured and articulate manner then that is unfortunate.
The lack of any commentary on the actual game also means that I am able to comment on the result only.

Is it just me or am I the only one that didn't get any of what you just said out of your first comment? To me, as a Barker supporter, it seemed as if you were just talking down Knox - Knox who spent too much money on their coaches and as a consequence lost a 'passion for the game', adopted a 'money over loyalty' mentality, and lost sight of 'what school is supposed to be about'. You then contrasted this to the 'underprivileged' Waverley who managed to beat them in a game of rugby on the weekend despite not spending a huge sum of money on their head coach. My point is that most of the statements you are making were drawing conclusions that were not supported - nor could they possibly be - by solid evidence as opposed to outsider speculation (undoubtedly you are a Waverley supporter/parent).

 

[smokinjoe]

When talking about school values - academic education must be high up the list.
Waverley to their credit, under their relatively new headmaster have been putting more focus in this key area over the last few years

 

[Fowi]

Are there any match reports being posted soon?

 

[Lee Grant]

Are there any match reports being posted soon?

Unfortunately the only one we received was for Waverley v Knox,

But it's a goodie:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/cas-round-6-surprise/

.

 

[Rugby Ref]

I agree with the ref’s decision as described in the post, and it is a no brainer according to the laws of the game, however I do have an issue with the whole scenario though…

My question is how did this extra player get onto the field without the AR knowing in the first place? It’s a very common practise that all substitutes/ replacements need to go through the AR first before being allowed onto the field… if the player simply went onto the field without checking with the AR first (i.e. – just ran on without seeking permission), then a diligent AR should have seen this occur and notified the ref immediately – and thus the ref should have simply asked the player to leave the field (and no penalty would be required, as the player had no impact on play – simply play-on).

It would be interesting to know all the relevant facts about the situation so as to comment further… (without upsetting the mods!)

 

[Scythe]

Is it just me or has this thread disintegrated pretty quickly over the last month or so


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sidelineview]

A note on coaching and the amateur vs professional debate.

What Waverley did on Saturday and other teams have done over the years, that is, show tremendous courage and character, pride and passion, you can't coach. However, we all know a good coach can bring those qualities out in his players and end up with a motivated committed team that will do their best for him and each other.

Someone doesn't need to be an ex international to achieve that as a coach. The humble schoolteacher can often achieve that.

A very good teacher is always a big chance of being a very good coach. He already has good communication skills. He already knows how to motivate and encourage and how to speak effectively to a group and individuals. He knows to take time to learn what makes each individual tick in the team and how to approach them to get the best out of them. He already knows the importance of preparation. He understands the balance between maintaining discipline and having fun. He's got it covered.

Now if the humble schoolteacher has knowledge and experience in a given area of expertise as, say a rugby player, even if he was a mediocre one he's in the box seat to being a really good coach. If he's keen enough he will continue to learn, understanding the benefits of education.

Any rugby player who has been successful as a player would have certain admirable qualities he could pass onto his young charges, but he may not have the other necessary skills to match that of the teachers.

Don't underestimate how good some 'just schoolteachers' have been and are now and will be as coaches in future (on schoolteacher wages). There are some genius part time coaches in schools whose main job is to teach in the classroom.

 

[Brainstrust]

A note on coaching and the amateur vs professional debate.

What Waverley did on Saturday and other teams have done over the years, that is, show tremendous courage and character, pride and passion, you can't coach. However, we all know a good coach can bring those qualities out in his players and end up with a motivated committed team that will do their best for him and each other.

Someone doesn't need to be an ex international to achieve that as a coach. The humble schoolteacher can often achieve that.

A very good teacher is always a big chance of being a very good coach. He already has good communication skills. He already knows how to motivate and encourage and how to speak effectively to a group and individuals. He knows to take time to learn what makes each individual tick in the team and how to approach them to get the best out of them. He already knows the importance of preparation. He understands the balance between maintaining discipline and having fun. He's got it covered.

Now if the humble schoolteacher has knowledge and experience in a given area of expertise as, say a rugby player, even if he was a mediocre one he's in the box seat to being a really good coach. If he's keen enough he will continue to learn, understanding the benefits of education.

Any rugby player who has been successful as a player would have certain admirable qualities he could pass onto his young charges, but he may not have the other necessary skills to match that of the teachers.

Don't underestimate how good some 'just schoolteachers' have been and are now and will be as coaches in future (on schoolteacher wages). There are some genius part time coaches in schools whose main job is to teach in the classroom.

I think where the coach with a RECENT professional background is of value is that they bring new concepts to the coaching brief. I don't doubt for one minute the great credentials that many school based coaches bring, but in many cases, not being specific about any school, the game progresses in the off field science, the on field structure and strategy, the training set ups, recovery etc. I agree completely that being a professional coach does not mean you can necessarily inspire players ( Eddie Jones, Deans etc) and that can go a long way. The best coaches whether school teachers or professional coaches , are the ones who can educate and inspire the players. Both attributes are equally valuable in presenting a well drilled and dedicated rugby team. Great win to Waverly, but the test will be if push on from here , or they go back to where they were.

 

[doublev]

I agree with the ref’s decision as described in the post, and it is a no brainer according to the laws of the game, however I do have an issue with the whole scenario though…

My question is how did this extra player get onto the field without the AR knowing in the first place? It’s a very common practise that all substitutes/ replacements need to go through the AR first before being allowed onto the field… if the player simply went onto the field without checking with the AR first (i.e. – just ran on without seeking permission), then a diligent AR should have seen this occur and notified the ref immediately – and thus the ref should have simply asked the player to leave the field (and no penalty would be required, as the player had no impact on play – simply play-on).

It would be interesting to know all the relevant facts about the situation so as to comment further… (without upsetting the mods!)

The Knox hooker was carded sometime during the last 10 minutes of the match. A scrum was required not long after and Knox needed to provide a replacement hooker and when he came on they failed to drop a backrower or a back to the bench. This went unnoticed by the ref and touch judges but the Waverley coaches and crowd were very vocal about it and when a penalty was awarded to Knox in the final seconds, the touch judge made the count and notified the ref who then correctly awarded a penalty to Waverley and that was the game.

From what I briefly saw after the match, the actual head coach for Knox, Mr Glassie, didnt seem upset with the refereeing decisions and I believe he even told them so. However, I believe I did see Matt Williams berating the touch judges on their and the referees performances.

 

[formerflanker]

I believe I did see Matt Williams berating the touch judges on their and the referees performances.
Hopefully not.

 

[Rugby Ref]

Thanks for the clarification doublev, this explains the situation for me now - it appears a very unfortunate scenario has occurred that could have been prevented with some simple due diligence by the officials at the time the replacement hooker entered the field.

 

[SonnyDillWilliams]

However, I believe I did see Matt Williams berating the touch judges on their and the referees performances.

If true that is a disgrace ...

However just because you are a teacher doesn't mean you are a saint ... And just because you are a non -teaching coach doesn't make you a sinner

Alan jones won a gps premiership in 1974, and at the time he was a senior English teacher at kings

By 1975 he was asked to leave kings ....He was by all accounts a first class bully and his treatment of schoolboys an embarrassment to the school

What is the obsession with winning at all costs?!

Maybe matt Williams (if the above abuse of match officials is true) should google/read old knox boy, peter fitzsimmons great piece "humbled on the pitch heros on the beach "... For a great yarn re what wallabies did the day after they lost to samoa... .. When they Showed true class at coogee beach

Love that quote "better men make better all blacks"

 

[doublev]

If true that is a disgrace .

However just because you are a teacher doesn't mean you are a saint . And just because you are a non -teaching coach doesn't make you a sinner

Alan jones won a gps premiership in 1974, and at the time he was a senior English teacher at kings

By 1975 he was asked to leave kings ..He was by all accounts a first class bully and his treatment of schoolboys an embarrassment to the school

What is the obsession with winning at all costs?!

Maybe matt Williams (if the above abuse of match officials is true) should google/read old knox boy, peter fitzsimmons great piece "humbled on the pitch heros on the beach ". For a great yarn re what wallabies did the day after they lost to samoa. .. When they Showed true class at coogee beach

Love that quote "better men make better all blacks"

not 100% certain as I wasnt right next to them, but I am pretty sure that is what happened.

 

[doublev]

and despite whatever williams actions may have been, the other Knox coach conducted himself in a very professional manner.

 

[sidelineview]

I think where the coach with a RECENT professional background is of value is that they bring new concepts to the coaching brief. I don't doubt for one minute the great credentials that many school based coaches bring, but in many cases, not being specific about any school, the game progresses in the off field science, the on field structure and strategy, the training set ups, recovery etc. I agree completely that being a professional coach does not mean you can necessarily inspire players ( Eddie Jones, Deans etc) and that can go a long way. The best coaches whether school teachers or professional coaches , are the ones who can educate and inspire the players. Both attributes are equally valuable in presenting a well drilled and dedicated rugby team. Great win to Waverly, but the test will be if push on from here , or they go back to where they were.

So what you're saying is, if a well suited schoolteacher/coach who had rugby experience and all the attributes mentioned previously, had the time to keep abreast of all the latest training/coaching techniques etc, he would do a great job. He could possibly do as good a job as a professional coach? Maybe the time factor is what causes the problem, the keen teacher/coach would be burning a lot of midnight oil.

I just have to wonder how much difference there is between the effectiveness of a professional coach and a very good schoolteacher/coach who has casual assistance from a skills coach, a fitness trainer, a forwards coach etc etc.
It depends a lot on the 'cattle' a coach has to work with as well. Having talented players on scholarships would help.

Waverley might be a flash in the pan, who knows? we'll see, but it wasn't just a bit of an improvement in their performance last Saturday, it was big. Whether they can maintain the same high standard and intensity and consistency is anyone's guess, but the schoolteacher/coaches have improved them and the boys have obviously worked hard, so it's likely they will continue to progress, baring injuries. Time will tell whether they can continue to play well for 70 minutes every game from here on in. I think they have Cranbrook next so it will be a interesting.

Knox have performed well so far this season, but the test will be to see if they can learn from their mistakes and bounce back or stay where they were last Saturday.

 

[Lee Grant]

OK let's stop talking about the refereeing.

There is nothing like discussing refereeing, and fighting on the field, to bring down the tone of a thread in a schoolboy rugby forum.

Everybody is so earnest about it but it's better to talk about the rugby.
,

 

[Scythe]

OK let's stop talking about the refereeing.

There is nothing like discussing refereeing, and fighting on the field, to bring down the tone of a thread in a schoolboy rugby forum.

Everybody is so earnest about it but it's better to talk about the rugby.
,

LG has spoken


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wacky]

before you write this type of post get your facts right Connor Watson is not contracted to the roosters next year

 

[formerflanker]

the keen teacher/coach would be burning a lot of midnight oil.
You are right sidelineview - they do.