CAS Rugby 2013

[Insight]

Thanks for your match report.

I do think you have not given enough credit to the Waverley forwards though, especially in regards to the 2nd Waverley try. I have this on video and have watched it a few times now. This scrum was the third in a row a few meters out from the Barker line. Barker were 15 to Waverley 10 at the time with about 7 mins to go. Waverley were dominant in each scrum - hence the choice for two scrums for the two penalties. From my observation the Waverley scrum was so dominant that when their number 8 (Powter) stopped pushing to pick up the ball, the Barker scrum did not notice he wasn't there. A good feint also by Waverley number 9 (Narayan) to the blind side as Powter went untouched on the open side, largely because Barker were still pushing, not because of any spurious assertion of illegal holding. Even getting past the Barker 7 and 8 he still got between the vaunted Jones and one other (number obscured on video) from the Barker back line to score a very much needed try. Once converted 17-15 to Waverley.
Waverley were absolutely gutted by the loss after the bell. They will put this behind them and keep up the work rate in the weeks to come.

you are correct Waverley's forwards can be very proud of the effort unfortunately i don't have a video to revisit the game but the last 15 min Barkers scrums were only going one way and that was backwards

 

[Insight]

Predictions for this weekend
Waverley should go into this game with a lot of confidence based on their performance last week if they play with the same sort of discipline and structure I would predict them to come away with a win. They would be wise not to underestimate their opponents who may be the underdogs but play with a lot of spirit the full 70 min / Waverley 45 - St. Aloysius 21

Barker should come out with a point to prove after their last performance. Taking into account this team has played 12 games prior to last week with comfortable wins the difference between the teams in my opinion is Barker has three key game makers not the players that scored tries the players that set the tries up. Trinity will have confidence after the last two games, will be a close game in the first 20 min even though Trinity may have the bigger forward pack the consistency of holding onto the ball will be a problem./ Barker 38 - Trinity 12

Both of these teams have a lot of talent it is a pity that Cranbrook is not at full strength, the Knox team has not learnt to work together, there not cohesion amongst the team, I hope after last week this will improve with a win under their belt./ Knox 28 – Cranbrook 24

 

[Eshayz]

Silverarrow.

Not sure if it's true, I was at the match and didnt pick up on it

But it shouldn't be brought up to the referee in the Trinity game until it has been seen a few times, the ref can't call things for what happened a week ago. so I disagree

 

[silverarrow]

Silverarrow.

Not sure if it's true, I was at the match and didnt pick up on it

But it shouldn't be brought up to the referee in the Trinity game until it has been seen a few times, the ref can't call things for what happened a week ago. so I disagree

Guess we have to disagree, though I did sort of have a little bit of sarcasm in that reply - ie the Richie McCaw allusion...

 

[alpha]

I would also advise the Trinity Captain to ask the ref to watch for Red not rolling away, and sealing off. Very frustrating as a spectator on Sat. I reckon Barker have secretly had Richie McCaw over from NZ to teach them how he's been getting away with it since moses was a lad!!

I thought Waverley forwards had been to the McCaw school - repeatedly hands in the ruck in the blind side of the referee, very effective disrupting Barker recycle. Very frustrating as a spectator seeing it clearly right in front of us

 

[Insight]

Guess we have to disagree, though I did sort of have a little bit of sarcasm in that reply - ie the Richie McCaw allusion.

to be fair in the spirit rugby you would not be a good forward if you did not push the limits at the breakdown,and all set pieces if you get away with it good on the team, shame on the team that cannot adjust when getting blown up for it.the game I watched a thought Waverley push the boundaries at the breakdowns and got away with it

 

[silverarrow]

I thought Waverley forwards had been to the McCaw school - repeatedly hands in the ruck in the blind side of the referee, very effective disrupting Barker recycle. Very frustrating as a spectator seeing it clearly right in front of us

Ref gave three warnings to Barker in first half yet never went to the pocket. After half time it was like there hadn't been any warnings given at all. Agree with insight. Here's something that was caught! Straight in from the side in the red zone

 

[alpha]

Ref gave three warnings to Barker in first half yet never went to the pocket. After half time it was like there hadn't been any warnings given at all. Agree with insight. Here's something that was caught! Straight in from the side in the red zone

I remember that one - penalised Barker 7. i was closer to it than your angle. Barker 7 was behind last feet on his side (ie not coming from an offside position) and the ball had come out the back of the ruck so looked fair to me. I'm not a ref so happy to be corrected, but if the ball has rolled out past the last Waverley feet, is a Barker player coming from behind the last feet of his side of the ruck allowed to run in and pick up the ball? In other words the ball has come out the back of the ruck so no need to go through the gate of the ruck. Provided he is coming from an onside position he is free to pick up the ball. He wasn't joining the ruck from the side, he was picking up a ball that was out in the open. He never joined the ruck.

Anyway probably not a lot of point arguing referring decisions...at the end of the day it was a great game and neither side really deserved to lose...

And for a bit of fun - is the Silver Arrow a bit tarnished now that news of their secret tyre test has emerged?

 

[alpha]

Elfster's report, to my way of thinking, sums up a lot about St Aloysius Rugby. I've bene taken to task for predicting that they would finish last this year, and they may yet avoid that, although at present that's where they sit. But there's no doubt that they play with pride and commitment. Their problem is that their enrolment policy doesn't allow them to compete against bigger schools with different enrolment policies. That might be unfair, but it's life, I'm afraid. The interesting thing is just how many representative players have come out of the school in recent years - Pat McCabe, Bernard Foley, Tom Kingston and so on. This is a fine achievement. It's just that you can't do well in a ten-round competition without depth. This year, St Aloysius has two bona fide stars in Williams and Goodearl, and I think a lot of Vevers, too. But if they get injured leaves the side exposed. Whereas, say, at Barker, the guy who steps up into the Firsts isn't far behind the guy he replaces. I don't know if there's a solution to this. There's no reason why St Aloysius should feel obliged to change its policies. But there's a consequence that goes with that. I suppose that St Aloysius can look forward to being, perenially, like Scotland in the Six Nations - plucky battlers who produce some good individuals and now and then knock off more highly-regarded teams.

I don't understand what you mean by enrolment policy. Can you elaborate please

Also these things can go in cycles, Aloys beat Barker in 16A and 15A. There is a fair gap between the Barker 1sts and 2nd this year. Size of the school makes a difference. Knox has 250-300 per year group, Barker 200-220 (not counting the girls), and Aloys 135-150.

 

[casrugby12]

CAS 1s + 2s are selected this week I think I have a ruff idea of the 1s side how about the 2s ?

 

[Snort]

I don't understand what you mean by enrolment policy. Can you elaborate please

Also these things can go in cycles, Aloys beat Barker in 16A and 15A. There is a fair gap between the Barker 1sts and 2nd this year. Size of the school makes a difference. Knox has 250-300 per year group, Barker 200-220 (not counting the girls), and Aloys 135-150.

My understanding is that St Aloysius is academically selective and does not seek out or accommodate boys who emerge as promising Rugby players in later years of secondary school. In this they differ from the majority of Associated Schools who, whether or not they offer scholarships (and let's stay away from that) undoubtedly encourage Rugby players to join their schools.

I know of one Associated Schools Headmaster who thinks that this is simply a matter of safety. He will say that he has a duty of care to the boys who play Rugby for the school, and that sending out a 75kg boy to pack down in the front row of the 1st XV is simply irresponsible. So if he can find a way to attract boys to his school, preferably in or before Year 9, who can take on that role, he'll do it. St Aloysius, I understand, does not. Personally, I think that both positions are entirely honourable and justifiable. It's just that one tends to win more Rugby games than the other.

You also point out that St Aloysius is a small school. Quite right. Hence the pool of talent is shallower than in other schools. You're quite right to say that St Aloysius has done well in the A teams this year, especially the 16s. The problem is that in a ten-round Open competition, depth really matters, because one or two injuries can wreck things. Last year (this year I'm not sure) St Aloysius fielded only two teams in most junior age groups. Doesn't give much depth.

None of this is intended to be a criticism of St Aloysius. It's perfectly admirable that they remain a smallish school with an academic focus. But it will take a freakish combination of talent, luck and good management to win a CAS competition that way. This isn't news, by the way. In 83 years of CAS competition, St Aloysius claims three wins - a joint premiership in 1933, an "unofficial" win in 1978 (complicated by the vexed question of whether matches with St Patricks and St Pius "counted") and my personal favourite, a joint premiership in 1972, when four schools won three of their five games and the "unofficial" title was split four ways. I wouldn't say it won't happen again, but it just isn't easy for a school set up like St Aloysius to win Rugby titles, no matter how much spirit they show.

 

[footylover101]

My understanding is that St Aloysius is academically selective and does not seek out or accommodate boys who emerge as promising Rugby players in later years of secondary school. In this they differ from the majority of Associated Schools who, whether or not they offer scholarships (and let's stay away from that) undoubtedly encourage Rugby players to join their schools.

I know of one Associated Schools Headmaster who thinks that this is simply a matter of safety. He will say that he has a duty of care to the boys who play Rugby for the school, and that sending out a 75kg boy to pack down in the front row of the 1st XV is simply irresponsible. So if he can find a way to attract boys to his school, preferably in or before Year 9, who can take on that role, he'll do it. St Aloysius, I understand, does not. Personally, I think that both positions are entirely honourable and justifiable. It's just that one tends to win more Rugby games than the other.

You also point out that St Aloysius is a small school. Quite right. Hence the pool of talent is shallower than in other schools. You're quite right to say that St Aloysius has done well in the A teams this year, especially the 16s. The problem is that in a ten-round Open competition, depth really matters, because one or two injuries can wreck things. Last year (this year I'm not sure) St Aloysius fielded only two teams in most junior age groups. Doesn't give much depth.

None of this is intended to be a criticism of St Aloysius. It's perfectly admirable that they remain a smallish school with an academic focus. But it will take a freakish combination of talent, luck and good management to win a CAS competition that way. This isn't news, by the way. In 83 years of CAS competition, St Aloysius claims three wins - a joint premiership in 1933, an "unofficial" win in 1978 (complicated by the vexed question of whether matches with St Patricks and St Pius "counted") and my personal favourite, a joint premiership in 1972, when four schools won three of their five games and the "unofficial" title was split four ways. I wouldn't say it won't happen again, but it just isn't easy for a school set up like St Aloysius to win Rugby titles, no matter how much spirit they show.

This sums it up very well, I understand what you are saying about them being a selective school but they certainly don't deter good sportsman from the school in that, if you look at the kids particularly for water polo going to the school, and kids such as goodearl, it is clear that it is not entirely academically focused and that they are trying to not fall into that same category as SBHS and SGS when you see the development of the 16A and 15A sides.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

CAS 1s + 2s are selected this week I think I have a ruff idea of the 1s side how about the 2s ?

Publish the list to claim bragging rights, and to kick off the debate.

 

[Eshayz]

Casrugby12 can you please post your thoughts on the list? it'd be good to have a few predictions so we can compare thoughts when teams are announced.

also.. I want to see whether Barry Holmes made the cut? (sorry not good on names, he is no. 15 from barker)

 

[casrugby12]

Casrugby12 can you please post your thoughts on the list? it'd be good to have a few predictions so we can compare thoughts when teams are announced.

also.. I want to see whether Barry Holmes made the cut? (sorry not good on names, he is no. 15 from barker)

Well for the 1s I believe
1 McLean (t)
2 koutsoukis (w)
3 satiu (t)
4 Williams (a)
5 heeny (w)
6 Burkett (b)
7 pierce (k)
8 moala (t) summerhayes (c)
9 whicker (t)
10 o'donnell
11 peak (k)
12 ebeling (t) stoltz (b)
13 (from Knox) vevers (a) goodearl (a)
14 kotabalavu (t)
15 jones (b)

 

[casrugby12]

Casrugby12 can you please post your thoughts on the list? it'd be good to have a few predictions so we can compare thoughts when teams are announced.

also.. I want to see whether Barry Holmes made the cut? (sorry not good on names, he is no. 15 from barker)

2nds
1 gan
2 Kennan
3 bleach
4 brokowski
5 king
6 o Connor
7 storey
8 powter, summerhayes
9 Kirkby
10 (B)
11 stals
12 ebeling
13 vevers
14 Davis
15 Barkley brown

 

[Snort]

Well, for what it's worth, my 1st XV would be:

1 McLean (T)
2 Koutsoukis (W)
3 Satiu (T)
4 Williams (A) (if fit)
5 Heeney (W)
6 Burkett (B)
7 Summerhayes (C) (if fit)
8 Powter (W)
9 Whicker (T)
10 Smerdon (B)
11 Paek (K)
12 Stoltz (B) (c)
13 Dove (B)
14 Davis (B)
15 Jones (B)

The second row bothers me the most - Williams may or may no be fit, but there's no-one else I've seen who really stands out. That's six Barker players, which seems a fair reflecton, but every school represented, not intentionally, but just how it panned out.

Seconds? Geez, flip a coin. Maybe:

1 Slack-Smith (B)
2 No idea
3 No idea
4 Akopian (B)
5 Boulton (K)
6 Stevens (W)
7 O'Connor (W)
8 Moala (T) (if fit) or Van Zyl (K)
9 Kirkby (B)
10 O'Donnell (W)
11 Elwood-Hall (B)
12 Newby (K) or Ebeling (T)
13 Wylie (C)
14 DeLorenzo (C)
15 Barkley-Brown (T) or Vevers (K)

In other words, your guess is as good as mine. Better, probably. I've assumed Goodearl is out injured, by the way.

 

[Snort]

casrugby12 and I agree on 11 in the 1sts - which, if it means anything, suggests that the core of this team picks itself.

 

[casrugby12]

Yes it would be interesting to see who they pick
But from what I have seen I believe ebeling has earned the spot instead of newby I could be wrong. And I don't rate vevers at 15 to me he is a 13
Your thoughts

 

[Snort]

Yes it would be interesting to see who they pick
But from what I have seen I believe ebeling has earned the spot instead of newby I could be wrong. And I don't rate vevers at 15 to me he is a 13
Your thoughts

I wouldn't disagree - you could slice this any number of ways. I think Barkley-Brown has played better than Vevers this season, but Vevers is a good player. You could easily play Vevers at 13 and Wylie on the bench. I'd start Ebeling and have Newby on the bench. And I agree that Kotobalavu should be in the mix somewhere.