CAS expansion

[Runner]

Auggies 1 was in year 11

 

[Snort]

At the risk of reviving a dead thread, St Patrick's played in the CAS Rugby and cricket rounds in 1978 and 1979 on a trial basis, with St Pius playing in the Rugby rounds. The trial wasn't pursued. In cricket, this was because an odd number of teams created a bye, which no-one wanted. In Rugby there were issues with St Pius, who lost most of their games and spent most of their time trying to injure opponents. No-one turned their mind to swimming or athletics. By now the CAS competitions have taken shape and I don't see any enthusiasm for new schools. The CAS formed because the GPS wouldn't take new schools. The ISA formed because CAS wouldn't take new schools. ISA seem happy enough with their competition now.

 

[skuxo.deluxo]

I'm Perplexed by the fact that even the GPS competition is bigger than the CAS even with its higher prominence.

especially considering what i heard all through school rugby about St Pats Strathfield wanting to join the CAS, but being rejected because of their catholicism (thats what my dad says) even though they smash Aloys, Cranbrook, Waverly, and probs trinity.

anyone want to fill me in on what they know about this?

waverley this year beat st pats this year something like 28-7 and the previous year flogged them.

 

[staedler]

In 2010 Waverly beat Pats on the bell, wouldnt necessarily call that a flogging

 

[dermo]

Auggies would be suitable as they have become very strong also Oakhill would be good candidates as they are probably better than St Pats across the board and they have the depth

 

[Man on the hill]

wikipedia (if it is to be trusted) has interesting articles dealing with the history of CAS & GPS, and after reading those - i can't ever see either organisation inviting any new schools into their tribes.

 

[Harv]

At the risk of reviving a dead thread, St Patrick's played in the CAS Rugby and cricket rounds in 1978 and 1979 on a trial basis, with St Pius playing in the Rugby rounds. The trial wasn't pursued. In cricket, this was because an odd number of teams created a bye, which no-one wanted. In Rugby there were issues with St Pius, who lost most of their games and spent most of their time trying to injure opponents. No-one turned their mind to swimming or athletics. By now the CAS competitions have taken shape and I don't see any enthusiasm for new schools. The CAS formed because the GPS wouldn't take new schools. The ISA formed because CAS wouldn't take new schools. ISA seem happy enough with their competition now.

In 1978 Pats and Pius were indeed guests. In rugby they finished with the best records in the (unofficial) CAS comp (drawing the last game). Previously they played in the TCS comp which faded/morphed into the ISA. Pats has long been a strong rugby school, but apparently soccer has eaten away at the talent pool in recent years.

 

[T.Rugby]

In 1978 Pats and Pius were indeed guests. In rugby they finished with the best records in the (unofficial) CAS comp (drawing the last game). Previously they played in the TCS comp which faded/morphed into the ISA. Pats has long been a strong rugby school, but apparently soccer has eaten away at the talent pool in recent years.

Yeah not only that but they lose many of their best sportsman to GPS schools, this is either for more exposure (at their own cost) or through a scholarship/bursury (btw not an attack at GPS schools or trying to bring up scholarship arguments). The latter happened to two of my relatives who attended st pats in year 6, 7 and 8 and were then offered a chance to play footy and attend school at joeys, which really helped them.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Waverley is Catholic so I doubt how that would play any role in determining whether or not they should be allowed to join the CAS.

This is an old thread, but for the record; St Patrick's was a 'guest' in the CAS for several seasons, following the demise of the rather forgettable TCS competition. During that time as a 'guest', they frequently either won the 1st XV competition - or drew in first place... If my memory is correct, the lasy year of their 'guest' status was 1981, a year in which they had only an average 1st XV. Of course, to remind them they were 'guests' these Premierships were never officially recognised.

I can confirm that they were effectively 'shut-down' by the parents at Knox - and too a lesser-extent, Barker - and the issue WAS catholicism... The Parents & Teacher Associations were opposed to having another Catholic School in their competition.

At the same time, they received virtually no significant support from Waverley College - a fellow Christian Brothers School, and were then effectively cast adrift... I believe that St. Aloysius were quite supportive - St. Aloysius, Cranbrook & Trinity all voted for their inclusion, Waverley apparently voted in favour, but had made their ambivalence known, and Knox lead the 'No' vote, over-ruling their inclusion, along with Barker College.

In those days, annual games were held against Scots, High, Riverview and of course, all the CAS teams - few of which generally held any major fears... They also played Stannies at Bathurst, and St Pats from Goulburn every year.

From that point, until the advent of ISA the school teams competed in a series of ad-hoc and makeshift games each season, and the Rugby Programme lost much of its momentum which had bulilt up to that point. Their best players were not eligible for CAS Rep teams, and they made do with the 'CCC' which effectively just made up the numbers, and were largely overlooked for higher honours. I know several individuals central to their Rugby Culture eventually left the college in the wake of their ejection from the CAS.

The school was also highly competitive in Cricket, Athletics and Basketball, as well as Swimming, to a certain extent.

Be under few illusions as to the still pervading presence of sectarianism in some sydney schools. I doubt very much the school would even accept an invitation to the CAS at this stage - so poor was their treatment at that time...

 

[Snort]

Interesting post, Hell West & Crooked. But not terribly accurate.

First, St Patrick's was a guest in the CAS competition from, I think, 1978 to 1983. It won no "unofficial" 1st XV premierships in that period, although its teams were certainly very competitive. It is simply wrong that "to remind them they were 'guests' these Premierships were never officially recognised." First, they won none - and secondly, nobody's premierships were recognised in this period. Not Knox, nor Barker, nor Trinity, no-one. "Official" CAS premierships were discontinued in 1941 and not revived until (I think) 1988.

What did happen was that St Pat's caused an element of confusion as to who the Premiers were, because some schools counted the St Pat's game in the "unofficial" tally and others did not. Thus in 1979, if I remember correctly, both Waverley and St Aloysius claimd the premiership on the basis that St Pat's beat (otherwise undefeated) Waverley and lost to St Aloysius (whom Waverley beat). But St Pat's (who lost to Trinity) were not in the hunt on any count. In 1980, Trinity claimed the "unofficial" premiership by omitting its loss to St Pats.

You may or may not be right about Knox - I don't know. And I don't doubt that sectarianism may have been a factor. But you've left out the most important point, which is St Pius. St Pats was invited to compete as a guest along with St Pius. No-one wanted to add just one more school, because that would have created a bye, which wasn't desirable. St Pius did not distinguish itself. Its rugby teams were not very competitive, but did attract a reputation for dirty play, while it had little ability to field teams in other sports (St Pats fielded cricket teams for instance - St Pius did not). So in the end what really killed St Pats chances of joining was the fact that they were yoked to St Pius, who did not come up to the mark.

 

[thejuggler]

Interesting post, Hell West & Crooked. But not terribly accurate.

First, St Patrick's was a guest in the CAS competition from, I think, 1978 to 1983. It won no "unofficial" 1st XV premierships in that period, although its teams were certainly very competitive. It is simply wrong that "to remind them they were 'guests' these Premierships were never officially recognised." First, they won none - and secondly, nobody's premierships were recognised in this period. Not Knox, nor Barker, nor Trinity, no-one. "Official" CAS premierships were discontinued in 1941 and not revived until (I think) 1988.

What did happen was that St Pat's caused an element of confusion as to who the Premiers were, because some schools counted the St Pat's game in the "unofficial" tally and others did not. Thus in 1979, if I remember correctly, both Waverley and St Aloysius claimd the premiership on the basis that St Pat's beat (otherwise undefeated) Waverley and lost to St Aloysius (whom Waverley beat). But St Pat's (who lost to Trinity) were not in the hunt on any count. In 1980, Trinity claimed the "unofficial" premiership by omitting its loss to St Pats.

You may or may not be right about Knox - I don't know. And I don't doubt that sectarianism may have been a factor. But you've left out the most important point, which is St Pius. St Pats was invited to compete as a guest along with St Pius. No-one wanted to add just one more school, because that would have created a bye, which wasn't desirable. St Pius did not distinguish itself. Its rugby teams were not very competitive, but did attract a reputation for dirty play, while it had little ability to field teams in other sports (St Pats fielded cricket teams for instance - St Pius did not). So in the end what really killed St Pats chances of joining was the fact that they were yoked to St Pius, who did not come up to the mark.

While I would tend to agree with Snort, i'm reticent to agree that official CAS premierships were discontinued between 1941 and 1988. I can provide a list of CAS Henry Plume Shield winners that dates back to 1930. I've seen the Henry Plume Shield, and it looks pretty official, and it it inscribed with winners names from 1942 to 1987. It is true that the CAS regards only the 1st XV comp as "official". Certainly St Pat's name does not appear on the shield at all.
Games in all other and age groups are considered "friendlies".
And just quietly, as a former TCS rep, I take exception to the "forgettable" reference to that comp. St Augustines, St Pats, Chev, Oakhill, St Leos Waitara and of course, St Pius enjoyed fairly competitive comps in most grades and I have fond memories of games against all of them. Chev (my old mob) and St Leos were pretty good rugby schools in those days.

 

[Quick Hands]

The CAS website provides a list of winners in rugby right back to 1930. http://www.cas.nsw.edu.au/home/winter-sports/rugby/previous-winners/


The history section of the website also notes that Waverley were invited to join in 1944. One assumes that no-one else has been invited.

There could be a number of reasons for this, although I suspect the provision of facilities could be one and the sectarian issue probably can't be dismissed either.

As they've made no serious attempt to bring anyone else in for almost 70 years one assumes that they aren't interested in doing so. Most, if not all of the logical candidates would be catholic - maybe the sectarian balance is the key.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

I shan't get into a slanging match, its 30 years ago - all I can say, is that my involvement in the matter ended in 1981, and I am fairly sure that the outcome was known before my departure. It may have been 1983, but if so, I don't recall how I could then have had the discussion with the CAS Committee member in 1981.

You may also recall that the CAS was - at least in theory - actively looking to expand at that time as many members felt that 6 colleges was too few..

I agree entirely with your appraisal of the St. Pius situation, although the assumption that these two werew naturally 'yoked' together would not have been a widely-held view at the time - the were seen as separate applications by many (not all, I am sure), standing on their own performance. Certainly, I doubt that Strathfield shared that view...

I mean no disrespect to St. Pius when I say that over the years, and (although I must have done so several times), I cannot recall having taken the boys over to a St. Pius match one single time - I cannot even recal where their fields are...

Having said that, I do not doubt that one would have had influence on the other (not least due to the possible inclusion of a bye - however there are obviously several solutions, as opposed to the one that was taken - excluding BOTH schools) ... A college like St Stanislaus would have lost nothing in comparision to the others - and one wonders why they were not considered over St. Pius.

I did not go into many issues in my post - questions at the time occured regarding the absence of Cadets, and the Dimensions of Main Ovals- in terms of Athletic Tracks - but these items were never seen as nearly so important as Rugby, Cricket, Swimming & Academics...

The main question however, goes to the issue of the Premierships. Your point regarding the end of "Official Premierships" rings a very loud bell - I recall the derision with which this regarded at the time, as most of the members took the pursuit of a title VERY Seriously - and games between Barker, Knox, Waverley and at times Cranbrook were always very hard fought. I recall matches between Aloysius & Strathfield and Waverley & Strathfield in 78-79 that were clean, but brutal. This last fixture had an annual 'grudge' flavour too it, even though Stathfield was geographically far away from us.

Certainly, everyone in the Teams, the Coaching Staff and the Spectators were aware of premiership standings - regardless of how "unofficial" it was - and the ongoing ladder was frequently featured on the Programmes...

Strathfield had been playing trial games against several member schools regularly - and attended their swimming meets, athletic meets (Cranbrook annually, I can vouch for) and their Basketball & Cricket Teams for many years - the CAS was well aware of what it was getting. Common Sense suggest the 'guest' period ought to have been a procedural, only...

Perhaps my point was put poorly - as you have stated "both Waverley and St Aloysius claimed the premiership on the basis that St Pat's beat (otherwise undefeated) Waverley and lost to St Aloysius (whom Waverley beat)...(edit)... In 1980, Trinity claimed the "unofficial" premiership by omitting its loss to St Pats.."

There was a fairly head-scratching culture in play; where 2 schools were Formally Invited to participate as 'guests' and the kids were asked to take the same knocks, and the same risks as everyone else... Despite this official status, various members preferred to not include Strathfield in their "official" tallies"...

- this seemed to occur most often in the wake of defeats...

It was a culture of 'come-on kids, bust a gut, try your heart out - and when its all said and done, we will go home,and maintain that it was just unoffical". In any case - the CAS covered itself in No Glory at all at that time - Having been historically excluded from the GPS, some menber schools responded by excluding others...

The motives for that exclusion are what makes the incident reflect so poorly on those involved... It also reflects poorly on affluent members of a 'New World' Country, who ought to have had the common-sense to leave such nonsense behind...

Anyhow, now that the CAS have made Lawn Bowls an Official Sport - Strathfield may consider themselves to have been lucky.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

"And just quietly, as a former TCS rep, I take exception to the "forgettable" reference to that comp. St Augustines, St Pats, Chev, Oakhill, St Leos Waitara and of course, St Pius enjoyed fairly competitive comps in most grades and I have fond memories of games against all of them. Chev (my old mob) and St Leos were pretty good rugby schools in those days.[/quote]

I do not recall St Augustines being involved at all - perhaps they were a school that Chevalier trialled against?

I recall you had a Main Oval made of 'Concrete'...

Was it not the gradual concentration by St Leos and Oakhill on Rugby League that lead to their departure - and the eventual disintegration of the TCS? My memory tells me that by the mid-70s, Leos and Oakhill were having trouble fielding the required depth in various age-groups...

 

[Snort]

Let's clear up a few things.

The Plume Shield was donated in 1930. There was a competition table, points awarded, trophy awarded, the whole nine yards. After 1941, the competition was discontinued. The view was taken that it was unseemly to have a sporting competition conducted during wartime. Matches were played, of couse, but it was stressed that there was no official competition. Of course, everyone knew who had won the most games, and that school would then claim to be the "unofficial premiers".

This state of affairs existed until 1988 (or 1989 - I'm not entirely sure). Then it was decided that the Plume Shield competition would be revived, and an "official" premiership was contested for the first time since 1941. At some stage, some bright spark decided to go back and add all of the "unofficial premiers" to the list of winners. No doubt this was well-intentioned, but it was dumb, because it involved imposing on the competition, retrospectively, a set of assumptions that did not exist at the time. To give only one example, what about the years when the title was shared (my favourite, by the way, is 1972, when four schools won three games and lost two). Had there been an official competition then, would the winners have been decided by bonus points, for and against, some other method, or would the title have been shared? No-one can say, because there was no official competition, so no-one worried about it.

In the same way, no-one bothered to clarify the impact of the St Pat's games, and this created chaos. (The St Pius games caused less trouble, because pretty much everyone beat St Pius.)

Take 1979. If my memory serves (and I am, remember, a cartoon pig, so I can't be trusted entirely), in 1979 Waverley beat everyone except St Pat's and Trinity (a 14-14 draw - I do remember that one). St Aloysius lost to Waverley but also beat St Pat's. So if you counted St Pat's and St Pius, St Aloysius had won 6 and lost 1, to Waverley's 5 wins, a loss and a draw. If you include only full member schools, Waverley's four wins and a draw beat St Aloysius' four wins. Both schools claimed the premiership that year, and no-one bothered to sort it out, because it was "unofficial" - it didn't really exist. I would say that as a general rule, teams that beat St Pat's said that the games counted and teams who lost said they didn't.

Perhaps one area where St Pats were treated poorly in this period was that its players weren't eligible for CAS teams. I suppose that no school wanted to reduce the prospect of its own players getting a run.

St Pat's, I should add, had some handy players in this period. Danny Naylor was probably one of the best - a loose forward who made it into the Sydney senior team at one point, I think. The 1980 team was a strong one, with Naylor, Tony Cox (who was a reserve fly-half for the NSW Schools 2nd XV that year), and Roger Harkin, who went on to play quite a bit of First Grade at Sydney University. And of course Michael Foley came through in about 1984. St Pat's would have been really formidable in the early 80s (say 80-81) had they been able to reach an understanding with the Gales, Scott and Brett. They wanted to combine playing League with their school football, and the school couldn't accommodate that, so they packed off to Holy Cross Ryde and League. They really were superbly gifted schoolboy footballers, although life didn't turn out well for either of them, as Scott died sadly young from motor neurone disease, and Brett ended up doing time for his part in an armed robbery.

End of history lesson.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

I really do not want to debate who may have won in any particular year - My intention was simply to point out there are a number of schools who have attempted for decades to get a decent level of competion across a range of sports, and continue to be denied on the basis of lamentable motive...

I wonder at times why some of these schools persist with a love of Rugby, when Rugby often seems to Not Love them.

My original mention was initiated by a post which said he had heard about Strathfield "wanting to get into the CAS" ... That is true - the TCS was defunct and they NEEDED a competition - but just as true at the time was that the CAS was Looking to get a Couple of New Members...

The CAS Committee thought an 8 team competition made much more sense than 6...

For my own part - I think they were dead right. Perhaps if they had invited Stannies instead of Pius it may have had a quite different outcome. Buit that is a mute point.

 

[angrydog]

C

Let's clear up a few things.

The Plume Shield was donated in 1930. There was a competition table, points awarded, trophy awarded, the whole nine yards. After 1941, the competition was discontinued. The view was taken that it was unseemly to have a sporting competition conducted during wartime. Matches were played, of couse, but it was stressed that there was no official competition. Of course, everyone knew who had won the most games, and that school would then claim to be the "unofficial premiers".

This state of affairs existed until 1988 (or 1989 - I'm not entirely sure). Then it was decided that the Plume Shield competition would be revived, and an "official" premiership was contested for the first time since 1941. At some stage, some bright spark decided to go back and add all of the "unofficial premiers" to the list of winners. No doubt this was well-intentioned, but it was dumb, because it involved imposing on the competition, retrospectively, a set of assumptions that did not exist at the time. To give only one example, what about the years when the title was shared (my favourite, by the way, is 1972, when four schools won three games and lost two). Had there been an official competition then, would the winners have been decided by bonus points, for and against, some other method, or would the title have been shared? No-one can say, because there was no official competition, so no-one worried about it.

In the same way, no-one bothered to clarify the impact of the St Pat's games, and this created chaos. (The St Pius games caused less trouble, because pretty much everyone beat St Pius.)

Take 1979. If my memory serves (and I am, remember, a cartoon pig, so I can't be trusted entirely), in 1979 Waverley beat everyone except St Pat's and Trinity (a 14-14 draw - I do remember that one). St Aloysius lost to Waverley but also beat St Pat's. So if you counted St Pat's and St Pius, St Aloysius had won 6 and lost 1, to Waverley's 5 wins, a loss and a draw. If you include only full member schools, Waverley's four wins and a draw beat St Aloysius' four wins. Both schools claimed the premiership that year, and no-one bothered to sort it out, because it was "unofficial" - it didn't really exist. I would say that as a general rule, teams that beat St Pat's said that the games counted and teams who lost said they didn't.

Perhaps one area where St Pats were treated poorly in this period was that its players weren't eligible for CAS teams. I suppose that no school wanted to reduce the prospect of its own players getting a run.

St Pat's, I should add, had some handy players in this period. Danny Naylor was probably one of the best - a loose forward who made it into the Sydney senior team at one point, I think. The 1980 team was a strong one, with Naylor, Tony Cox (who was a reserve fly-half for the NSW Schools 2nd XV that year), and Roger Harkin, who went on to play quite a bit of First Grade at Sydney University. And of course Michael Foley came through in about 1984. St Pat's would have been really formidable in the early 80s (say 80-81) had they been able to reach an understanding with the Gales, Scott and Brett. They wanted to combine playing League with their school football, and the school couldn't accommodate that, so they packed off to Holy Cross Ryde and League. They really were superbly gifted schoolboy footballers, although life didn't turn out well for either of them, as Scott died sadly young from motor neurone disease, and Brett ended up doing time for his part in an armed robbery.

End of history lesson.

Cripes, wasnt Brett Gale formerly a police Detective?

 

[Wood Rat]

Not Realy CAS expansion but part of the history lesson that HW&C may not be aware of as (s)he was only 7 at the time

IIRC the early 80s (81 or 82) was about the time Combined Catholic Colleges started their school association Rugby Team. The first couple of seasons they were poor cousins to the other associations and were well dusted by CHS
'83 was a team of 7 or 8 Oak Hill the rest coming from St Pats, Pius, Kogorah and Eastwood (My apologies if I have forgotten anyone)
this team beat CHS and this was followed by a win again within the next two years (that team also thought they were the first to defeat CHS, clearly no one was interested in keeping accurate and accessible records at the time)

This is also about the time CCC was able to establish a total quota of 1 into the NSW schools teams. A quota I believe has not been increased in the 30 years of its existance

I may be wrong but I was given the impression from conversations with sports masters in the late 80s this created some impetuous for interested parties including Pats Pius Oakhill and Eastwood to discuss a competition of their own.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

You are correct, like the 'TCS' teams before it - the 'CCC' teams to which you refer (and which came about in the wake of the TCS closure) were never really given any recognition, and their games against CAS & GPS sides (I cannot comment on CHS) were regarded as minor fixtures - and rarely resulted in any of the players being selected - I note you have fixed that Tally at 1.

Micheal Foley did particularly well to make it to the Schoolboys through this system, at that time.

What was the story with Oakhill - did it flirt with Rugby League in the late 70s & early 80s - or remain with Union? In what competition was it competing before ISA?

I recall that 2 schools slowly moving towards the Mungoe game was the main factor in the TCS competition folding...

 

[Wood Rat]

Br Ambrose from Oak Hill was coaching the CCC union team in the early 80s so the flirting may have been more coy than not