Can Cheika ball work for the Wallabies?

[Inside Shoulder]

Cheika has a passionate commitment to the game in Australia: he will not want to do anything that could harm it, like bringing in OS players.
If people are trying to predict his approach based on KB (Kurtley Beale) you have to remember that the ARU have said they will speak to KB (Kurtley Beale) about his top up and that he was free to tour - they have not done so in relation to expats.

 

[qwerty51]

Can I just add how much I hate the suffix of ball to a coach's name to describe their game style..

As one poster said Jake Ball is a Welsh player.

 

[Train Without a Station]

But Cheika invented running rugby and White invented the kicking game didn't they?

 

[Braveheart81]

Can I just add how much I hate the suffix of ball to a coach's name to describe their game style..

It was the evolutionary step after humans decided that adding -gate to the end of something was the universal method of naming a scandal.

 

[I like to watch]

I don't think he doesn't rate Godwin and English but they were clearly only there for injuries and given there's been none in the backline why should they be given time? Cheika needs to play his best 23 and they're not in it.

Because it builds depth by giving them time.
I have always been of the view that this tour is a development tour.
What harm comes from giving them a run?
I think it was very poor form to bring KB (Kurtley Beale) on tour 1/2 way through, whilst there are players already on tour in his position that have yet to have any game time.

 

[vidiot]

Drifting off topic but I think if you were to ask Godwin and English they would tell you that they would have loved a cap, but between staying at home and being off Cheika's radar and being on tour they would have chosen the tour.

There is some benefit in training week in and out with the incumbents and the wallaby coach going into the RWC.

 

[Braveheart81]

With two players already fighting over the 12 jersey (Leali'ifano and To'omua) and Beale rejoining the fold who Cheika clearly sees as an option at 12 at Super Rugby level (and is presumably keen to try it at test level), it's not surprising Godwin didn't get a game.

In years gone past, he would have played a bunch of midweek games and no tests. Unfortunately a year out from the RWC with no mid week games, someone like him is unlikely to get a game barring injuries.

Whilst it would have been nice to see him debut, it's pretty easy to understand why he hasn't played.

 

[Quick Hands]

Drifting off topic but I think if you were to ask Godwin and English they would tell you that they would have loved a cap, but between staying at home and being off Cheika's radar and being on tour they would have chosen the tour.

There is some benefit in training week in and out with the incumbents and the wallaby coach going into the RWC.

That's what they're getting out of the tour. A chance to work closely with the Wallaby coach and to impress him for the future. I'm sure they'd have loved some game time, but people need to think long-term about the team as a whole and the individuals.

 

[Brumby Runner]

You could apply that pretty equally to any style the Wallabies have tried to play.

Invariably our weakness has been physicality in the forwards and this goes a long way towards that. This problem has existed for years bar the odd test (once or twice a year) where we really muscle up.

I think our biggest problem currently is the makeup of our bench forwards. I feel like Skelton is getting selected because we can't provide any real ball running from the other options.

Robinson/Alexander/Faulkner are all lacking in that dominant carry ability. Sio is probably the best option to provide that off the bench so hopefully he comes back into contention next year.

One thing that has become noticeable with Fainga'a finding such good form is that he's now miles better than Hanson. Hanson is coming onto the field and trying to add to his carrying by stayhing on his feet and getting extra metres that way but it is costing us turnovers. Bring Moore and/or TPN back in and we've immediately got much more from the bench spot.

None of Carter, Simmons and Horwill are providing consistent physicality, particularly with ball in hand which is why I think we're seeing Skelton selected.

In the backrow, Hodgson is good off the bench for certain jobs but he isn't providing that dynamic aggressive running that we need. Schatz won't bring that either. We need someone like a Scott Higginbotham for the replacement backrower role.

Braveheart, I agree with all of this. I can think of a No 8 who just might bring the physicality that Cheika wants but he has some way to show that he's regaining form at Super level first.

Edit : I should say he is not a Waratah, but Palu probably fits that description as well.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I don't know, but if I was to guess what Cheika would say to Scott Higginbotham it would be to increase his aggression at the breakdown to be more like Fardy.

I think Fardy is one of our more physical breakdown forwards and that is something we're currently lacking. We need more players making strong effective cleanouts both in attack and defence.

There's no deep mystery to the style Cheika tries to play. It is built on high workrate and fitness and consistent physicality both in attack and defence.

Some people seem to be suggesting that it's akin to trying to turn the Wallabies into a Fijian 7s team.

Fardy is very physical at the breakdown, sometimes perhaps a bit more than needed as he tends to give away penalties. But he doesn't have the running game of Potgeiter which I think was a crucial factor in the success of the Tahs this year. Not sure he would be the answer to the Tahs' style in the Wallabies but again is there anyone else? Cottrill is an up and comer who plays with a lot of aggression but I don't think he is the running 6 that Potgeiter played at the Tahs.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Not sure exactly what is implied by Cheika ball, but if you are asking if exactly what the Tahs did will work for the Wallabies, then no, I don't think it will. There are too many weaknesses, such as neglecting set pieces to focus on attacking and linking training, or relying heavily on fitness when you cannot guarantee the fitness of the players from their provincial teams.

Will a variation work? I think it may do. But going by how long it took the Waratahs to adjust, it will probably take the Wallabies a long while, and they don't have nearly as much time together so it will be a tough ask.

What I think we will see is the first pain Link found, in that things that work at Super Rugby don't necessarily work in Test rugby. Super Rugby there exists much more time, and weaknesses can be hidden much better with them rarely being exploited. Test games have much less space and tend to find weaknesses that are being hidden.

The other really big issue that will face Cheika is that no matter how much success or otherwise he has leading into and at the RWC, there will be a fairly large turnover of players after the Cup. Could possibly see the departure from the potential starting side of TPN, Kepu, Horwill, Palu, Genia, Beale, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Horne and Folau. Others will go missing from the bench like the two Ben(n)s. So, Cheika will almost be starting over again with a largely new squad, especially considering the currently injured players who are likely to return and who haven't yet been exposed to his style, like Squeaky, Pocock, Sio and Higgers.

All considered, I think he will have a lot harder time bringing his style in to the Wallabies than he had at the Tahs.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I don't think he doesn't rate Godwin and English but they were clearly only there for injuries and given there's been none in the backline why should they be given time? Cheika needs to play his best 23 and they're not in it.

That is probably so, but I was interested in finding out who IIWII thought Cheika would have selected for the EOYT if he had had that privelege.

 

[It is what it is]

I would be interested in finding out your thoughts on who would (or might) have been included in the EOYT if Cheika had been able to select the squad. I judge by your comments that you believe he wouldn't have taken those players who haven't made the team for a game yet, so presumably Godwin and English. By the same token he probably would have initially included Beale and Schatz given that he's brought them in mid-tour. But others? Who else was available?

I do believe it will be the end of the Aussie Super franchises being competitive if Cheika starts bringing in overseas based players. There would then be no reason for top line players to stay and play here. Added to that is the problem of really knowing how good European or Japanese form is for those overseas players. It is not unusual for any of those who go OS to apparently show an immediate gain in form and skills levels. Makes you wonder does it not?

I said it's not the squad Cheika would have selected.
You've asked me a redundant hypothetical question.
This is not however the first Wallaby tour where some players will not receive game time.
The All Blacks have recently declared that some players go with the squad for development purposes, and will most probably not get any game time.
My point was he had a higher priority of sorting his midfield options amongst established players before creating game time for the rookies.

 

[It is what it is]

The other really big issue that will face Cheika is that no matter how much success or otherwise he has leading into and at the RWC, there will be a fairly large turnover of players after the Cup. Could possibly see the departure from the potential starting side of TPN, Kepu, Horwill, Palu, Genia, Beale, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Horne and Folau. Others will go missing from the bench like the two Ben(n)s. So, Cheika will almost be starting over again with a largely new squad, especially considering the currently injured players who are likely to return and who haven't yet been exposed to his style, like Squeaky, Pocock, Sio and Higgers.

All considered, I think he will have a lot harder time bringing his style in to the Wallabies than he had at the Tahs.

Believe it or not, that is why many coaches coach.
It's the challenge and reward of building something like a new team.

 

[cyclopath]

Can I just add how much I hate the suffix of ball to a coach's name to describe their game style..

As one poster said Jake Ball is a Welsh player.

Just hope we never get a coach named Blue!


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[Gagger]

I'm really interested to hear about the game plan that makes up for a dominated pack against top international teams because there isn't one.

If we have depth and talent defects, then surely the answer is to focusing it into one game plan that we aim to play at a level that is competitive, rather than trying to have a bunch of different speeds, none of which can beat New Zealand.

Can the Wallabies play it?

1 - We have to

2 - Jacques Potgeiter isn't the one decent ball running / people smashing forward in Australia - he's not even in the Tahs.

Look at Kepu. He's matched anyone he's played this tour in tight, and blistered them in the loose. A season ago he was a disappointment. A few more stories like this and a few injuries returned and this worry about the pack disappears. As it is this team has lost or not won a bunch of matches this year by not much at all.

Does Cheika have enough time with the team? Well he's got months with a pretty good slug of them even before they're Wallabies.

Finally - don't believe this story going around about Cheika dialling back the game plan "to fit in all the talents" from other provinces. It'll very much be 'those talents will be great as long as they can fit in'.

The slow ball dancing behind the gainline of Genia and Cooper will not go anywhere. Already you can see Genia having to lift his service pace.

It's FIFO time

 

[Teh Other Dave]

I'm really interested to hear about the game plan that makes up for a dominated pack against top international teams because there isn't one.

If we have depth and talent defects, then surely the answer is to focusing it into one game plan that we aim to play at a level that is competitive, rather than trying to have a bunch of different speeds, none of which can beat New Zealand.

Can the Wallabies play it?

1 - We have to

2 - Jacques Potgeiter isn't the one decent ball running / people smashing forward in Australia - he's not even in the Tahs.

Look at Kepu. He's matched anyone he's played this tour in tight, and blistered them in the loose. A season ago he was a disappointment. A few more stories like this and a few injuries returned and this worry about the pack disappears. As it is this team has lost or not won a bunch of matches this year by not much at all.

Does Cheika have enough time with the team? Well he's got months with a pretty good slug of them even before they're Wallabies.

Finally - don't believe this story going around about Cheika dialling back the game plan "to fit in all the talents" from other provinces. It'll very much be 'those talents will be great as long as they can fit in'.

The slow ball dancing behind the gainline of Genia and Cooper will not go anywhere. Already you can see Genia having to lift his service pace.

It's FIFO time

Selecting the Tahs ain't gonna cut it at test level. He needs to dial the game plan up to take advantage of all the talents.

 

[Gagger]

a

Selecting the Tahs ain't gonna cut it at test level. He needs to dial the game plan up to take advantage of all the talents.

Where did I say he'd have to select the Tahs?

What I said was other talents are going to have to fit the game plan, not the other way round.

 

[RugbyReg]

Does Cheika have enough time with the team? Well he's got months with a pretty good slug of them even before they're Wallabies.

Wait? They've picked the wallaby team for the RWC already? Or do we just need to pick Tahs in it to make it easier for the coach?

I don't think a team such as this is out of the question:

15 Izzy
14 JOC (James O'Connor)
13 Kuridrani
12 To'omua
11 Speight
10 Cooper
9 Phipps
8 McCalman
7 Hooper
6 Fardy
5 Simmons
4 Carter
3 Kepu
2 Moore
1 Slipper

4 tahs there in what would seem a pretty darn good team. What happens then? All planning out the window?

 

[I like to watch]

You predicting Foley is going to do an ACL?
I think Cheika has shown his colours as to his preferred 10.