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Beunos Aires based Super Rugby team by 2015

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WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
i wouldnt get to wrapped up in it all, it wont be a case of injecting Argentina into the current competion, the restructure from the Super14 to the current Super Rugby conference system will continue IMO.

I see a day when the Super Rugby component of the of competition will be closely alligned to how the Heinekin Cup currently operates, only the top few teams from each country/conference will proceed through to the penultimate round of the competition. This allows each country/union to retain control of how they operate the conference, how long the season is and ultimate which teams are included.

It may not be ideal, but if you consider the needs and requirements of each country, it would be a lot more flexible and accommodating to the domestic(currie cup and npc) competitions, which is currently the biggest sticking point in expanding the competition further.

Bang on. Super Rugby in my opinion is far from its final destination. The conference system to me is a signal they have plans to turn it into a multi-region championship with each conference playing an internal competition and the top 2 or so teams progressing into a HEC like finals series.
 

Melbourne Terrace

Darby Loudon (17)
the thread was proceeding on the australasian centric assumption that all flying would be to the west: no one bothered to do the maths to appreciate that it actually balances out the time zones for all teams. the force having an advantage in this regard.
it aint going to happen so its academic
the cost is a financial reason
you will note i confined myself to geographical and did not address physiological or other issues

I guess i wasn't so clear on that, this is of course an emotional subject.
i meant this financial reason is caused by a geographic factor but now that's getting technical and wordy so we'll leave that.
 

Melbourne Terrace

Darby Loudon (17)
Bang on. Super Rugby in my opinion is far from its final destination. The conference system to me is a signal they have plans to turn it into a multi-region championship with each conference playing an internal competition and the top 2 or so teams progressing into a HEC like finals series.

Would definitely see merit in that sort of structure, i'm basically all for the europe model, separate leagues and cups (maybe with a bloody international window) but that would do me fine. as long as long as the unions get final say on how they conduct their 'conference league' as in competition structure (sa will demand pro/rel) sponsorship, foreign imports and tv negotiations.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Personally I think we have it spot on right now, the only thing I would change is the addition of 2 extra games so you play every other team. I dont know about you, but I love playing the kiwis and saffas; bulls and stormers are usually my favourite games of the year, real contrast of styles.

But the saffas want another team, and the argies want in, so I guess expansion is inevitable. All for the best in the end.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Would definitely see merit in that sort of structure, i'm basically all for the europe model, separate leagues and cups (maybe with a bloody international window) but that would do me fine. as long as long as the unions get final say on how they conduct their 'conference league' as in competition structure (sa will demand pro/rel) sponsorship, foreign imports and tv negotiations.

News Ltd will not pay the money for a comp not involving all 3 countries provinces competing for the 1 trophy: the sethefrikans and the k1w1s will not watch us...and we probably wont watch them.....
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
I still think they'll compete for the Super Rugby Championship ultimately as I also think they'll look to continue to bundle everything together. Essentially, it will be one competition but with 4 or even 5 conferences playing for internal conference Championship being the Currie Cup, ITM and whatever evolution the other conferences adopt.
 

Sir Arthur Higgins

Dick Tooth (41)
I think the better solution would be to simply increase the quota of allowable foreign players to say 4 per squad and require that at least two of them go to argentinians - that's 30 argentinians playing super rugby. they can get their base super 15 salaries and with the probably reasonably large media dollars the argentinian rugby union will get for its tri nations participation, they can start paying their players some decent money.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
I think the better solution would be to simply increase the quota of allowable foreign players to say 4 per squad and require that at least two of them go to argentinians - that's 30 argentinians playing super rugby. they can get their base super 15 salaries and with the probably reasonably large media dollars the argentinian rugby union will get for its tri nations participation, they can start paying their players some decent money.

That's actually another solution I've suggested previously. I'd open up 5 squad places for international development player's across all Super Rugby squads and guarantee 50% of those to Argentina and the other 50% to the likes of the USA/Canada and the PIs.

That said, I actually think where Super Rugby is going (and that will one day venture into the Americas) was decided quite some time ago.
 
J

Jumpers

Guest
Expanding the Super Rugby to Argtina will not happen unless there are conferences setup. With the current dynamics in operation to add more teams into the current mix would be a waste facing heavy financial costs, travel, tv ratings and longer recovery times.

I think the current form will remain a few years yet!
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I still think they'll compete for the Super Rugby Championship ultimately as I also think they'll look to continue to bundle everything together. Essentially, it will be one competition but with 4 or even 5 conferences playing for internal conference Championship being the Currie Cup, ITM and whatever evolution the other conferences adopt.

there has to be inter conference play in order to get people from 2 countries to watch it
 
I

Ilie Tabua's Shadow

Guest
This topic screams of David Nieu and US League. Pipe dream stuff.

I really hope Argentina can snag a couple of home victories in their first few years in the 4 Nations.

I doubt they will win away from home for quite a while. But to paraphrase Principal Skinner, "Surpise me Pumas".
 

Melbourne Terrace

Darby Loudon (17)
there has to be inter conference play in order to get people from 2 countries to watch it

people don't really watch it anyway. New zealanders and south africans are dead set bored of super rugby, hence why crowds are terrible in nz. games from south africa played at 2am don't exactly provide a ratings heaven new limited. they do not want to play each other or us, they want to see games that are meaningful and that is the traditional rivalries of their provincial competitions.
 
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Ilie Tabua's Shadow

Guest
Yes, possibly true, yet explain to their players why their contracts will be downgraded through the loss of television revenue if an intenational provincial series is scrapped.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
This topic screams of David Nieu and US League. Pipe dream stuff.

I really hope Argentina can snag a couple of home victories in their first few years in the 4 Nations.

I doubt they will win away from home for quite a while. But to paraphrase Principal Skinner, "Surpise me Pumas".

There's a very big difference.
 

AussieDominance

Trevor Allan (34)
I think the better solution would be to simply increase the quota of allowable foreign players to say 4 per squad and require that at least two of them go to argentinians - that's 30 argentinians playing super rugby. they can get their base super 15 salaries and with the probably reasonably large media dollars the argentinian rugby union will get for its tri nations participation, they can start paying their players some decent money.

Yes that's a great solution Australian, South African and New Zealand Rugby Unions shall pay for the development of Argentina's finest players.
 

Melbourne Terrace

Darby Loudon (17)
Yes that's a great solution Australian, South African and New Zealand Rugby Unions shall pay for the development of Argentina's finest players.

Unions aren't paying for them if private ownership of teams increases as planned by the unions. anyway if they are quality players they will pay for themselves by increasing the standard of the competition, thus exposing the current top players throughout the competition to better quality rugby each week. i'd rather see better quality players each week than be stuck with duds with no chance of progressing to the national team.
 

Sir Arthur Higgins

Dick Tooth (41)
their top up international wages would come from the IRB and Argentine rugby.
the amount that the super rugby team would actually be paying them would be minimal. probably an average of $80k per player per year.
I am sure with argies in the tri nations plus argi participation in super 15 the increase in television rights (from increased demand for super 15 rugby in argentina) would more than offset the costs of paying the argentines their base super 15 salary - on these assumptions totalling $2.4M a year
without a team in argentina, whatever dollar amount you can sell the super 15 rights to argentina for just gets divided up between the SANZAR unions.

As long as you cap the quota at a reasonable amount, I fail to see how including a more global base of players is an issue? Wales and France are both in the semis and their domestic leagues allow significantly more foreign players to play per team than australian rugby.

If australian teams were allowed to go out and get two argentine players each, they could pick up the ten best argentine players. this makes them more competitive as a result of replacing third tier australian players with top tier argentine players. as a result, they perform better in the super 15. better results means people pay more attention and are willing to pay to see them more often. this means increased gate receipts and increased television revenue.
If you think the inclusion of TWO foreigners per team will be the death knell for the game, have a look at Wales, Ireland, France and England - the game is massively more popular in all of those countries and probably all are in better financial shape than australia. expand the global audience for super 15 and expand the $$$ you get.
 
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pete88

Guest
Hmm, you won me over there Arthur, although I would want the ARU to continue to ban foreign-based Aussies from playing for the Wallabies. I don't mind the sound of that type of thing, although the holy grail should be a thriving professional setup in Argentina, perhaps having fully isolated conferences for Super Rugby and an expanded final series? I can hear the Saffers and Kiwis raging about the unfairness of it now... let's do it.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
their top up international wages would come from the IRB and Argentine rugby.
the amount that the super rugby team would actually be paying them would be minimal. probably an average of $80k per player per year.
I am sure with argies in the tri nations plus argi participation in super 15 the increase in television rights (from increased demand for super 15 rugby in argentina) would more than offset the costs of paying the argentines their base super 15 salary - on these assumptions totalling $2.4M a year
without a team in argentina, whatever dollar amount you can sell the super 15 rights to argentina for just gets divided up between the SANZAR unions.

As long as you cap the quota at a reasonable amount, I fail to see how including a more global base of players is an issue? Wales and France are both in the semis and their domestic leagues allow significantly more foreign players to play per team than australian rugby.

If australian teams were allowed to go out and get two argentine players each, they could pick up the ten best argentine players. this makes them more competitive as a result of replacing third tier australian players with top tier argentine players. as a result, they perform better in the super 15. better results means people pay more attention and are willing to pay to see them more often. this means increased gate receipts and increased television revenue.
If you think the inclusion of TWO foreigners per team will be the death knell for the game, have a look at Wales, Ireland, France and England - the game is massively more popular in all of those countries and probably all are in better financial shape than australia. expand the global audience for super 15 and expand the $$$ you get.

no, it just doesnt work like that...

Firstly, why would the IRB top up the wages of a player in the Super Rugby competition, they have no need or requirement to do so, the IRB will help Argenitina gain acceptance into the Tri-Nations by providing funding to off-set the reduction in broadcast agreements the other countries face, they will enforce a international window on the NH clubs so that all Argentinan players will be released, but paying a Argentinans wages so he can represent a club in Aus/NZ/RSA is not going to happen.

In addition to that, even if the Argentinan Rugby Union does get a greater influx of cash from been added to the competition, at best they will pay there players around $10'000/match(maybe 15'000) which equates to $60'000/year. Add this onto the proposed Super Rugby wage of $80'000 and your proposing that a Argentinan test player will be happy to get paid $140'000 a year when most of them are on at least tripple that in the NH.

France and Wales are in different market places, France has economies of scale, which means they have enough professional rugby clubs in the country with development pathways that they can afford to allow foreigners in their teams. Wales again is a differrent market, welsh clubs are actually predominantly welsh, there are a number of forieigners in each but there squads are also significantly larger then Australian squads.

Dont get me wrong, im not against foreign players in Australian club sides, i just think its a naive to believe that it could work so seamlessly, Argenitinan players already get paid massive wages in Europe, it would be extremely exspensive to try and convince them to move to another part of the world for less wages, when ultimately there is little to gain. They can represent Argentina in the 4-nations whether they play in France/Australia or England.

The thought of Argentinan players flooding Super Rugby is a fantasy, the only time this will happen is if Argentina has there own team included in the exsisiting Super Rugby competition.
 
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