PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
You forgot the wee man with his fishing rod, Paarl
OK my mistake, lets say its the competing sports beating rugby in Aus. Dont NZ have the same problem?:nta:
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OK my mistake, lets say its the competing sports beating rugby in Aus. Dont NZ have the same problem?:nta:
Scotty
David Codey (61)
Rugby in oz has a lot lot more competition than it does in nz. In fact there is likely more competition for sa rugby than nz.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Dont they play League in NZ?
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
They do, but it pales in comparison with union. We have four football codes competing for players and spectators in this country.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
I would have thought that soccer in sa is a much bigger competitor to rugby than league in nz.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
The difference with League in NZ and here in Aussie is that we aren't so either/or about the two codes. Most people in NZ can enjoy and understand and even play both codes quite willingly. You don't really see the rugby guys talking down or rubbishing league and vice versa - not like I've seen and read here in OZ.
But rugby is definitely the 'bigger' game in NZ by a long shot.....
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
LF - some comments:
- as i've noted before, IMO the impact of HD rugby broadcasts onto ever-cheaper-by-the-month large (45"-65") plasma/LCD TVs that have recently sold in large volumes in Aus and NZ, cannot be underestimated in this context. With these technologies, the immersive experience of live sport at home is significantly enhanced and, other factors notwithstanding, the attractiveness of staying at home to watch a game vs trekking out (in some places into cold, high traffic, parking-hassles, conditions) to local games (where prices have often been rising more than inflation and with product, food and seating quality not improving), has increased significantly. That's why to assess precisely and with complete accuracy what has really happened to 'total home and ground viewing' rates for a code or code-game type (say S15), you need a considered composite of: TV viewership figures, $s yielded via TV rights (absolutely, and per viewing head), ground attendances (persons and total $s so yielded), % ground attendance rates related to population growth, and % rates of TV viewership (related to both the general TV population and its growth and competing sports on TV) to reveal code market share growth (or otherwise). Only by carefully aggregating and analysing all these parameters over the same time periods, can you truly assess the level of code (or code game type) prosperity or decline. Hardly anyone does this, so we have to use bits of the data as proxies for making this type of assessment at a more general (but intrinsically less accurate) level.
- One thing we do know is that gate attendance volumes for S15 and the resultant $s matter greatly to the economic viability of 'local' and State rugby bodies as (a) those $s typically come 100% to them (b) gate volumes (good or bad) tend to significantly influence larger local sponsors to sponsor in the first place, and then at what $ level to sponsor, and whether they stay sponsoring over time. Then, more indirectly, TV rights marketers know that the look of increasingly sparse stadia with weakened crowd atmosphere is not optimal for holding TV audiences either, partly as it's a second-order reinforcer - or alternatively turning-off - variable for the viewer as the viewer wonders at his or her rationality in watching if he or she perceives there's less and less people at the actual game, and so on.
- as you note, there can be no question that winning rugby matches in a positive, fan-friendly manner (excellent skills execution, daring plays, plenty of ball-in-hand, etc), correlates hugely with crowd attendances, and (over time) TV rights income levels, etc. And Barbarian has an excellent point, this in itself is not quite enough, teams need at least 2-3 crowd dazzler players that people will pay to come and watch (gate or home via TV). And you need good, well-sited, physical stadia suited to rugby (and so it's no co-incidence that Suncorp/Brisbane does so well when a code starts rebuilding there: perfect central location, good nearby bars and restaurants, good transport, good, fast food and drink supply in the stadium, mild, dry temperatures in winter, great atmosphere even when 50% full, etc). Summarily, you need really excellent professional coaching and code business management so as to deliver a top quality 'total product experience' to old and new fans in all of the foregoing attributes (and some more). The fact is: that top quality 'total product experience' is not being adequately delivered by the aggregate Australian rugby management system today, and that is at he heart of why the code is in trouble in many places and forms. And none of this is rocket science!!, it can all be fixed, it just isn't being fixed in enough places in Australian rugby, with enough speed and quality of management.
Lance Free
Arch Winning (36)
The proof is in the pudding. Reds = winning, Suncorp = best crowd ever. No doubt I'll be there consuming vast quantities of over-priced beverage to bump up the numbers (and the profits for all, accordingly).
Victorian Reds Fan
Bob Loudon (25)
The Mayor of Perth
Ted Fahey (11)
That's what's happening in Perth RH. A major reason given for moving Force games from Subi to Perth Oval was to arrest the decline in crowd numbers from average 28500 in 2006 to 17900 in 2009. The expectation was for crowds in the order of 18500 to 20500 in a stadium of almost 21000 capacity, mainly due to everyone having a 'better seat'. The reality was an average of 16500 last year which has decreased to 15800 this year. Good job it hasn't rained in the 13 games so far as 95% of the seats are uncovered. The total product experience definitely needs to be fixed here - maybe we can have a fan forum?
Also the AFL and League don't have the problem with winning sides. It is always a zero-sum game for them, some sides will be winning and others will be losing. But in the S15 every Australian side can be losing, which has largely been the case this year. Of course the flipside is also true, but I cannot see that happening any time soon!
Lance Free
Arch Winning (36)
Maybe the Force need to buy (and develop) some better players?
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Scarfie, I'd be the first to say my theory re the gate-numbers impact of increased (cheaper) large screen+HD broadcasts is just that, but it's backed here in Aus by lots of anecdotal feedback I get.
I'd add this: if the market-building dynamics in the code are going well _at the local level_ (say French rugby) and that is increasing the attraction of live games for whatever sustained reason (eg, people sick of soccer, great local stadia and facilities, increased dazzler stars, better code promotion and investment, etc), then the impact of my next-gen TV theory will be much less than if that's not the case. For example, Reds crowds are way up, we know why, and, I'd bet money, S15 viewership on Fox in Brisbane will be up this year as well, = double whammy benefit. My theory is that HD TV etc starts to really hit gate nos when going to live games becomes less and less attractive or compelling, for any number of reasons. That is, there comes a kind of 'negative tipping point in poorer total product quality' when people just stop going to games, or go to many less games, and a better TV experience by far (than existed just say 5 years ago) will increase the attractiveness of that choice.
And Bullrush pointed out that in NZ, relatively tougher economic conditions in his view have really impacted the S14/15 gate there, whilst, seemingly, pay TV subscriptions to get lots of TV rugby have not fallen.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
IMO, the Force need to do something radical and reasonably fast to get their w-l % up, and get into an S15 top 6 etc, or they risk a 'negative tipping point' down to a gate level (of say 13-14k per match) that may threaten their whole economic viability, and the vicious circles of weakened top player retention, lowered sponsorship $, etc, will really hurt and hurt hard. TOCC's and The Mayor's figures show how sustained has been the downward gate slope in the last 4 or so years, that simply must be arrested. The RubyWA 2010 Annual Report shows materially declining $ income v 2009, and material P&L deficits (as was the case in 2009), even after multi-million $ grants from the WA Govt. For my money also, there appears to be too many blue suits on the Board without hard-edged, professional, top line sports management and marketing expertise.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Problem with poofball in SA is that the sport aint school but club driven. Rugby is pretty much strong here from age 6 as a school sport while the poofball clubs only start their youth teams from much higher age.
W
wolverine
Guest
Unfortunately NPC crowds have been declining for years. In the link there, 9 of 12 attendances that were listed were under 10,000. The large 38,000 crowd was attracted because Canterbury offered free tickets to locals after the first earthquake.
The Currie Cup is similar. Games involving Non Big 5 provinces generally draw smaller attendances. I can't seem to upload the image, but:
* 17 of 44 listed crowds in last year's CC were under 10,000
* 8 games attracted 1,000 spectators (including a game in Bloemfontein against Griquas)
* the Leopards attracted 400 spectators vs Lions in Phokeng and 600 spectators vs Griquas in Potchefstroom.
SANZAR probably schedule night matches to maximise the number of people watching on TV, not only in NZ and Aus, but particularly in South Africa, so matches are on TV in SA at breakfast time or early morning, when people are awake there. More afternoon matches in Aus/NZ would be nice, its been great to see a few conference derbies held in the afternoon here (Rugby League and AFL stage several games on Sunday afternoons), but in SupeRugby it might be hard to justify financially unless SANZAR could pitch a competition successfully to the Japanese market.
Perhaps.
Attachments
W
wolverine
Guest
Correct me if I am wrong, but soccer has three times the number of registered players? SA Soccer has around 1.8 million players, SA Rugby has around 450,000?
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Just take into account that SA School rugby players aint registrerd so no comparison.
Saw a good crowd in Brisbane last week. The Stormers vs Brutes game on Newlands for round 17 was yesterday already a sold out.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Well we do get lower crowds when the Bokke arent playing. 10,000 seem to be a decent crowd compare to Aus or NZ these days. To much rugby and myself aint one who support overseas players playing for the Bokke. If we want to keep our CC alive we need the top players and we should have chuck the S1000 and stayed with the S14. Its going to kill our game in the future even more.
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