Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2013

[Hugh Jarse]

The cream still rises to the top regardless of the various elite programmes the players may have been participated in.

As well as future development opportunities, Coaches and Selectors, coach and select teams to win the here and now, not next years game or for a game at the next tier sometime in the future.

Look at this years U20 team. Notwithstanding the low finish, when challenged to name those who were poorly done by in the selection stakes, the collective brains trust of Gaggerland could really only come up with two or three players who could/would have done better than the boys who went to Jnr RWC as our representatives.

The numbers from that squad of 28 are:
19/28 were in ARU Academy (67%)
17/28 were former NGS graduates (60%)
18/28 were former Aust Schoolboys (64%)

30+ % of those selected at U20 level were previously "unannointed" and have risen to prominance on the back of their hard work, fitness, application, form and opportunities at Club level.

 

[Buster]

The cream still rises to the top regardless of the various elite programmes the players may have been participated in.

Agree that this is the case, and that those who work hard may well find there way to the top and that the Aus Schools isn't the be all and end all.

However, if we had a streamlined process of getting our footballers to the best place possible as soon as possible, would you be pumping "x" thousand dollars into 4 players (according to all previous reports on this thread) who have all indicated or signed contracts removing themselves from being available to continue on into the pathway. My view is, give those who are committing to the overall program to reach the top grade the resources and chances!

This won't ever happen until everything is brought into line from the top. How an Australian Schools team isn't in some way being overseen by the HPU guys, or the Aus U20's is beyond me! Surely the U20's coaches would rather someone getting exposure now to Northern Hempisphere rugby who i slikely to be part of the squad in a couple of years rather then someone who has already signed a contract expressly indicating that they won't, seems a waste to me is all.

Cracker opportunity to those league/NZ boys going though! Hope they have a ball of a time, they haven't in any way breached any rules or anything, so not a fault of theirs, i just think the system isn't working as effectively as it could to ensure RUGBY resources are best used to achieve maximum potential for the Wallabies and to a lesser extent the super franchises and Aus U20's.

 

[Hectic]

While I extend my deep sympathies to the players who missed selection, can we please all take a deep breath and applaud the boys who have been selected for the Australian Schoolboys Grand Slam Tour of the UK. Congratulations on the recognition of years of blood, sweat and tears to have achieved the highest level of representation at this point in your career. Enjoy the moment! Do not get chastened by future Wallaby statistics. Carpe diem!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Good points but is there any any guarantee that the boys with Greco Roman Rugby contracts will stay with that code? They may get sick of travelling up and down the East Coast of Australia, and visiting Auckland, and want to see the World.

For all my disdain for the dark side, they could learn a training and fitness ethic there that would be of use should they ever decide to come back to the light. A couple of years on the dark side in a professional athletic environment could be good for them, and may not set their overall rugby skills back too far.

Plenty of athletes have done a year or two with the mungos to come back after they are no longer eligible for <insert car manufacturer> Cup, and have missed the cut for NRL.

Aust Schools Team is overseen by ARU HPU Guys. Have you seen the list of selectors?
Same with the U20's. Some would say that Manu and the others in HPU have too much influence in the U20's and Schoolboys.

 

[Buster]

I have no idea who or what a "Manu" is, but will assume he is some sort of ARU guru???

If he is the head of the ARU HPU, then he should have a huge say in who is selected or not selected, as it is his head on the chopping block if the junior teams aren't succeeding, or are not producing enough top line talent. If it is the case that these junior teams are not producing alot of top line talent to go on, do we need to look at anew model where independant selectors are in charge governed by an HPU manager who is sacked if his teams are not producing enough quality senior players?? Just a thought.

Is fairly interesting to look at the difference in selections from a GPS - NSW - Australian level. McCalman for example didn't make GPS 1's, yet is considered good enough to captain Australia, there seems a fair disparity in the opinions of our selectors and their end goals (which is obvisouly to win said tournament), however is this result the best for the success of Aus rugby as a whole, or is it a process which hampers the overall growth of footballers? Is a fairly damning arguement.

Last year on the Horwitz front fron what i have researched, it is damn near embarresing that so many other people in rugby circles saw him as a talent both as a leader and footballer, yet something with the Aus Schools coaches led them to drop him from the team all together. It is a seriously bad look on their part as coaches IMO, as is having huge numbers from the selectors school and the selectors state, when both have IMO not performed to a standard that would indicate or support those selections.

Is purely a comment on the selection process not in any way meant to detract from the players and their achievements. People should always ask the questions such as who is accountable for a poor year, and what will happen to them. If the Aus Schools end up 1/9 (assuming 8 games on tour), will this years coaches have another go? Or do they get told "your performance was below expectation and does not represent the talent that is felt to be available in Aus Schools at present", or do they go on coaching with no accountability?

 

[Buster]

Good points but is there any any guarantee that the boys with Greco Roman Rugby contracts will stay with that code? They may get sick of travelling up and down the East Coast of Australia, and visiting Auckland, and want to see the World.

.

On the league front, agree with what you say, and hope they do come back, but still think it is a poor use of resources for the current situation!

 

[Done that]

Good points but is there any any guarantee that the boys with Greco Roman Rugby contracts will stay with that code? They may get sick of travelling up and down the East Coast of Australia, and visiting Auckland, and want to see the World.

For all my disdain for the dark side, they could learn a training and fitness ethic there that would be of use should they ever decide to come back to the light. A couple of years on the dark side in a professional athletic environment could be good for them, and may not set their overall rugby skills back too far.

Plenty of athletes have done a year or two with the mungos to come back after they are no longer eligible for <insert car manufacturer> Cup, and have missed the cut for NRL.

Aust Schools Team is overseen by ARU HPU Guys. Have you seen the list of selectors?
Same with the U20's. Some would say that Manu and the others in HPU have too much influence in the U20's and Schoolboys.

Not to mention influencing to what club a schoolboy is directed .

 

[CTPE]

This won't ever happen until everything is brought into line from the top. How an Australian Schools team isn't in some way being overseen by the HPU guys, or the Aus U20's is beyond me! Surely the U20's coaches would rather someone getting exposure now to Northern Hempisphere rugby who i slikely to be part of the squad in a couple of years rather then someone who has already signed a contract expressly indicating that they won't, seems a waste to me is all.

It would seem from the ASRU website that the ARU HPU is already involved in the team selection process:

SELECTORS – COMBINED STATES, AUSTRALIA AND AUSTRALIA ‘A’

Ben WHITAKER, CHAIR OF SELECTORS, ARU
Stephen PHILLPOTTS, Brisbane Boys’ College, QLD
Tim RAPP, Newington College, NSW
Glen CRONAN, Ipswich Grammar School, QLD
Pat LANGTRY, St. Edmund’s College, ACT
Manu SUTHERLAND, Australian Rugby Union, ARU

http://www.austschools.rugbynet.com.au/default.asp?id=199310

 

[Hugh Jarse]

"Manu" is Manu Sutherland. I think his official title is Head Coach in the HPU.

He is usually not too far off the money in the talent he picks, but he can be a bit of a polarising figure. Loved by those on the "right" side of NGS/JGS/Schoolboy selections, and unliked by those associated with boys not on the "right" side of aforesaid "elite" development opportunities or selections.

Hugh Carpenter, Ben Whitaker and Paul Curroza seem to be others in the HPU with similar influence.

David Nucifora was a previous ARU HPU Manager and eventually became accountable for poor performance of the U20's (was he pushed or did he jump?).

The whole selection process is a bit of a dogs breakfast, but the selectors can only select on what they see. School Association Selectors may differ from State School Selectors, who may view things differently to the National Selectors. Despite the influence of the HPU in the process, not all boys in the NGS (which are HPU hand picked) get selected for rep teams. They claim to have a long term development interest in these lads, not just selection for Schoolboys.

There are plenty of boys who may have had poor trials and been selected in their School Association II's or State II's team by those selectors who have then taken their chances and shone at the next level resulting in higher level selection. Some players are chosen for a specific game plan, which may differ from selection panel to selection panel, which may result in a player being plucked from obscurity, or dropped from the A team.

Nick Farr Jones, and Phil Kearns?

The lad that kept Horwitz out of the Schoolboys last year played particularly well in the Test vs New Zealand, so perhaps it was justified.

Look through the history of Aust Schoolboy open championships and there are a few occasions where NSW II or Qld II have won the tournament. Luck, better preparation, better players, better team despite being individually weaker - who knows - funny old game is rugger. Being selected in NSW II's or GPS 3 is not a badge of shame. It is recognition of an advanced level of skills comparative to the peer group, and as history has shown, there is often a cigarette papers thickness between the skill levels of the teams.

 

[Galloper]

Of the 4 QLD Nudgee College boys 2 have been there since year 7 and 2 from year 8.

I could be wrong, but I've been told that Campbell Magnay had never made an "A team at Nudgee until he made the First XV this year.

Talk about a meteoric rise!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Jolly good show then. Goes to show that you can make your own luck when/if you are given a chance.

He looked very good on Saturday. How did he go against the NZ boys on Tuesday?

The extra tourists for the NH tour were always going to be mainly Aust A players regardless of how they played against the NZ team who flogged them on Tuesday, or how well they played against what appeared to be a rather flat and tired Fiji team.

After defeating the NZ team on Friday night, any subsequent game by the Fijians was probably an anticlimax in their eyes. They won their World Cup at St Mary's RL Park.

 

[RugbyNut101]

It is indeed sad for Harry Jones, but Australian Schools isn't the be all and end all. As mentioned, David Horwitz wasn't wanted for the Schools tour last year or 20s this year and has had 2 super teams offer him contracts and he will be the only super rugby contracted player out of the whole bunch of 2012 Aussie School graduates.

 

[blackheart]

As mentioned, David Horwitz wasn't wanted for the Schools tour last year

I recall that it just wasn't Horwitz last year, Cam Orr and Jones were also non-tourists, so it's happened twice to jones. I bet he wishes the black cat he ran over, lived.

 

[Done that]

I recall that it just wasn't Horwitz last year, Cam Orr and Jones were also non-tourists, so it's happened twice to jones. I bet he wishes the black cat he ran over, lived.

Cameron Orr was injured prior to the tourists departing.

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Go and play somewhere where they'll put you in the 12 or 13 jumper and enjoy yourself.

HARRY JONES; sounds Welsh to me boyoh!

LOL

 

[Daniel Denton]

I gather his defence may be in question but the one incident I saw on Saturday that a casual observer may have put down to him was a failure in the system for dealing with the extra man, IMHO, because the 13 could not make up his mind who he was going to take: not a problem he would be used to dealing with in loig (or much at school for reasons worthy of a different thread). If I'm right 13 will be vulnerable to the more experienced "poms" he is about to encounter.
Anyway, Hutchisons defence on the other wing was shambolic but was not exploited: I acknowledge he was playing out of position and I'm not being critical of him just pointing out that wing defence is a bit of an art.

I'll have to disagree on the point of Hutchison's defence. Contrary to your belief of defending at wing being an art, I believe it all comes down to the decisions of the outside centre. The 13 needs to make the correct decision and the winger must react to this. But against the Kiwis the 13 decisions were wrong, which made it easy to blame the winger.

 

[Daniel Denton]

Quickly also, as pointed out by many from the results of the national championships. I'm curious to understand how ACT have 3 players named in the squad, whereas Vic only has 1? Victoria belted the Canberrans by 30+ points? Not to mention, ACT finished second last? I'm not for saying that certain players don't deserve it, but surely the results speak for itself?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Some answers may be in post #989.

 

[Rugby follower]

From Buster who has been, as he says quiet........ "The head coach is a QLDer, most of the additional boys selected from QLD?"

WTF the coach has a superb record against our great rival, much better than any previous schoolboys coach and far better than any seniors coach, who would love to has his record against NZ. Surely his opinion must be highly regarded. As head coach of a GPS school, he does not favour Qld GPS players, he just grabs the best available eg Wilkins, Moses, Henley, Junior for Aust schoolboys this year from Qld, all AIC players. Please acknowledge his skill and don't let a border line distort your opinions!!!!

 

[whatever]

If memory serves me correct, Harry Jones missed selection for the tour of Fiji and NZ last year. Now this year seemingly overlooked for the European tour when expected to be a walk up starter.

H'mmm, wonder if young Mr Harry Jones has passport issues?