Australian Rugby / RA

[KOB1987]

What does Out of control mean?

In a good way, great crowds and atmosphere

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If there was a way to leverage the existing club system in a way that could scale, be professional enough and commercially viable I'd be totally in favour of it.

 

[KOB1987]

If there was a way to leverage the existing club system in a way that could scale, be professional enough and commercially viable I'd be totally in favour of it.

That’s about all I’m saying. I don’t know what the solution is, but I can understand why a model along those lines is in the conversation.

 

[Tomikin]

Not much detail in the article on the Australian other then bunch of investors putting together a 100 m

 

[Pfitzy]

If there was a way to leverage the existing club system in a way that could scale, be professional enough and commercially viable I'd be totally in favour of it.

The existing club system won't fit, unfortunately.

The "Premier" clubs in all areas need to decide what they are, then take steps to make NCC a reality. Example:

The top X clubs from the main centres should be engaged through a buy-in system. If you can meet the criteria, you're in.

Those clubs form NCC and are given a salary cap and 25-28 player slots to fill.

The next tranche of players continue to participate in their local Premier Comp - including those players in the NCC club now becoming First Grade in their local comp. e.g. Warringah buys in, their top 25 are NCC squad, with those immediately outside the top 25 continue to play Shute Shield, and act as ready replacements.

This has the added benefit of levelling the playing field in a certain location e.g. take the top 6 squads out of the existing Shute Shield comp, and the mid-table clubs become more competitive.

Shute Shield becomes Premier Suburban Sydney, with a limit of 3 Grades + 2 Colts U20, and alignment with First Div Subbies clubs.
Subbies First Division stays much as it is (perhaps with an increase in club numbers), with a limit of 4 Grades + 1 Colts U21.
The player movements between Premier & First Div are still scrutinised, but the idea is that the better players from First Div are there to fill lower grade holes in Premier Div, not necessarily rise to superstar status.
Subbies stays at U21 to give Premier players another year together in the event they're not quite ready for senior footy, and helps with the movement between clubs.

Below Subbies First Division we move to a system much like we have now, similar to the English promotion/relegation with a limit of 3 Grades + Colts within local leagues.

What I'm quoting above is already happening in some parts: some Premier Clubs unable to meet 4 Grades + 3 Colts, and Subbies clubs suffering varying issues with numbers and quality.

Crucially, we need Juniors and Schools alignment in a broader sense (not just networking and individual contacts) under this in order to keep players in the game. I fear we're losing many at the U16, U18, and U20 hurdles.

FInancial models aren't my specialty but if we've got a product, there will be someone with money to fund it like this $100M model quoted in the SMH.

Unfortunately, there are going to be people aggreived at such a model, but to them I say: eggs, omelette.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Tend to agree Pfitzy. Have clubs buy into the national club comp and have a pro squad, with effectively their 2nd grade becoming the premier grade comp could be a path forward. Quite where they get the money to do it is another question, unless the money RA and state unions were using to fund the Super sides (or whatever the franchise arrangements are - I don't know the specifics) is then disbursed to the new pro clubs.

 

[half]

Why would they need to be given up? The existing Super Rugby teams would form the basis of a national competition, you'd just need at least 2 more teams (assuming the Drua are involved and the Rebels resurrected). 1 would have to be another team in Sydney, with the 8th either a 3rd Sydney team or a 2nd in Brisbane/South East QLD. Unless Twiggy or another billionaire really wants to fund a team somewhere else.

I think there's a good chance this will happen at some point. That or NZ will agree to an open eligibility policy within Super Rugby to even up the competition.

Huge respect.

But you have attempted to solve the issues/

Given our history, it was / still is essential, that all stakeholders become involved in the process and how to move forward.

Your ideas may work, but its an assumption only, and you don't know that's what the broader rugby community want including, fans, players, clubs, sponsors, broadcasters.

My estimation has always been a five year plan from start to end.

 

[half]

Your wisdom is amazing, so talented you are.

 

[half]

Agree with a lot of this half. There is a bit more to it than getting buy in to an idea, it must be able to generate income or we spend 5 years setting something up and then nobody apart from rusted on old bastards like me go to watch it. I am more the organic type, start it small and see if it grows
Never heard of the Australia Cup is there somewhere where I can read a bit about it?

From their home page a kinda what its about and the number of clubs in it.

About the Competition

www.australiacup.com.au

Home page

Home | Australia Cup

For all the latest Australia Cup news, videos, fixtures & results, visit the official website of the Australia Cup.

www.australiacup.com.au

wiki

Australia Cup - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KOB1987]

The existing club system won't fit, unfortunately.

The "Premier" clubs in all areas need to decide what they are, then take steps to make NCC a reality. Example:

The top X clubs from the main centres should be engaged through a buy-in system. If you can meet the criteria, you're in.

Those clubs form NCC and are given a salary cap and 25-28 player slots to fill.

The next tranche of players continue to participate in their local Premier Comp - including those players in the NCC club now becoming First Grade in their local comp. e.g. Warringah buys in, their top 25 are NCC squad, with those immediately outside the top 25 continue to play Shute Shield, and act as ready replacements.

This has the added benefit of levelling the playing field in a certain location e.g. take the top 6 squads out of the existing Shute Shield comp, and the mid-table clubs become more competitive.

Shute Shield becomes Premier Suburban Sydney, with a limit of 3 Grades + 2 Colts U20, and alignment with First Div Subbies clubs.
Subbies First Division stays much as it is (perhaps with an increase in club numbers), with a limit of 4 Grades + 1 Colts U21.
The player movements between Premier & First Div are still scrutinised, but the idea is that the better players from First Div are there to fill lower grade holes in Premier Div, not necessarily rise to superstar status.
Subbies stays at U21 to give Premier players another year together in the event they're not quite ready for senior footy, and helps with the movement between clubs.

Below Subbies First Division we move to a system much like we have now, similar to the English promotion/relegation with a limit of 3 Grades + Colts within local leagues.

What I'm quoting above is already happening in some parts: some Premier Clubs unable to meet 4 Grades + 3 Colts, and Subbies clubs suffering varying issues with numbers and quality.

Crucially, we need Juniors and Schools alignment in a broader sense (not just networking and individual contacts) under this in order to keep players in the game. I fear we're losing many at the U16, U18, and U20 hurdles.

FInancial models aren't my specialty but if we've got a product, there will be someone with money to fund it like this $100M model quoted in the SMH.

Unfortunately, there are going to be people aggreived at such a model, but to them I say: eggs, omelette.

I had a slightly different iteration of this a few pages back but we are definitely on the same page.

 

[Dan54]

@Pfitzy , sounds good idea going forward. I like most found the NRC fell over because (in Brisbane at least) we could never identify with teams. I had alway thought perhap the idea od club based was only way forward for national comp, would obvioust have to get over the fight by the clubs on who should get in etc, as the clubs that made the national comp would probably end up as only prem clubs within 5 years or so. Players would move to other clubs for better playing opportunities, and those outside the pro comp may have to accept they are going to end up glorified subbie's team.
But would still I think be best way forward, and casualties would maybe just have to form alliances/amalgamate with stronger clubs.

 

[SouthernX]

A national university competition? Theres already the ground work in place with the AON 7s…

I don’t know how the format would work. But if these university bankrolled the teams with RA assistance by providing players via centralisation pathway.

I’m sure there would be pushback from some of the qpr and Shute shield clubs seeing UQ or Sydney University having sub unfair recruitment edge - but it’s something to consider IMO

 

[LeCheese]

A national university competition? Theres already the ground work in place with the AON 7s…

I don’t know how the format would work. But if these university bankrolled the teams with RA assistance by providing players via centralisation pathway.

I’m sure there would be pushback from some of the qpr and Shute shield clubs seeing UQ or Sydney University having sub unfair recruitment edge - but it’s something to consider IMO

Does nothing but reinforce rugby's elitist image. Most people also wouldn't really care / identify with their local (or attended) uni all that much imo.

Even if they did, you'd almost need to include an all or nothing approach - e.g. would someone with links to Griffith or QUT care about or support UQ or Bond? If you're including all, you're then slicing and dicing your largest supporter groups (capital cities) into very small chunks. Then there's the question of how you select which regional unis are involved. Quickly becomes a pretty messy exercise.

 

[dru]

Then there's the question of how you select which regional unis are involved.

No need to change the premis:

The top X clubs from the main centres should be engaged through a buy-in system. If you can meet the criteria, you're in.

But it doesn't change this:

Quickly becomes a pretty messy exercise.

To which also an answer:

Unfortunately, there are going to be people aggreived at such a model, but to them I say: eggs, omelette.

 

[Omar Comin']

Huge respect.

But you have attempted to solve the issues/

Given our history, it was / still is essential, that all stakeholders become involved in the process and how to move forward.

Your ideas may work, but its an assumption only, and you don't know that's what the broader rugby community want including, fans, players, clubs, sponsors, broadcasters.

My estimation has always been a five year plan from start to end.

Why would it take 5 years to figure out a way forward when there's really only 2 or 3 options, all of which can be implemented relatively quickly?

 

[KOB1987]

Does nothing but reinforce rugby's elitist image. Most people also wouldn't really care / identify with their local (or attended) uni all that much imo.

Even if they did, you'd almost need to include an all or nothing approach - e.g. would someone with links to Griffith or QUT care about or support UQ or Bond? If you're including all, you're then slicing and dicing your largest supporter groups (capital cities) into very small chunks. Then there's the question of how you select which regional unis are involved. Quickly becomes a pretty messy exercise.

I mentioned before that a national U23 comp (as opposed to a uni comp) loosely modelled off the US College football comp was a logical conduit from rep schoolboy level to the 4 super rugby franchises. There are a lot of ifs and buts for sure, including how to fund it and structure it. I'm told a schoolboy rep leaguie gets around $35K straight out of school so there is a starting point.

Rugby is seen as the white collar code, and league as the blue collar code, but there is a healthy crossover between the two. I don't see this dynamic as an issue at all, there needs to be some differentiation. The elitist perception comes more from the GPS ties, both in terms of the source of players and the administrators. I wouldn't see the code being tied to tertiary institutions as being elitist, assuming all can participate. In fact the fund that is mentioned above claims there will be a heavy focus on indigenous and PI players, so it could be sold as also providing higher education opportunities to these groups.

 

[SouthernX]

Does nothing but reinforce rugby's elitist image. Most people also wouldn't really care / identify with their local (or attended) uni all that much imo.

Even if they did, you'd almost need to include an all or nothing approach - e.g. would someone with links to Griffith or QUT care about or support UQ or Bond? If you're including all, you're then slicing and dicing your largest supporter groups (capital cities) into very small chunks. Then there's the question of how you select which regional unis are involved. Quickly becomes a pretty messy exercise.

good feedback.

Like I said it would ruffle some feathers in the QPR/SS ranks. As a wests man it would pain me to see a wests junior suddenly be aligned with the heavies because of a geographical catchment rule.

 

[Pfitzy]

Quite where they get the money to do it is another question,

Well, Premier Clubs keep telling us how awesome they are. They can afford fulltime staff and admin. Go find the money i.e. put up or shut up.

 

[Pfitzy]

I like most found the NRC fell over because (in Brisbane at least) we could never identify with teams.

This is the weakness of the system: the existing tribalism of Premier Clubs provides a base BUT it is too small right now.

I'm Subbies. Premier Rugby varies between a distraction and a threat BUT if my Subbies club was aligned with a Premier club, maybe that changes my attitude and that of my club members. Relationships need to be built and money needs to start flowing.

Never shout down the chain. Shout up it.

 

[Strewthcobber]

@Pfitzy , sounds good idea going forward. I like most found the NRC fell over because (in Brisbane at least) we could never identify with teams.

If we can't get people to align with something as simple as Brisbane City, and not-Brisbane City (ie Queensland Country), does a new comp that doesn't just contain the Queensland Reds have any hope at all?