Australian Rugby / RA

[LeCheese]

Eddie gave a pretty good speech about this in the presser, about how the TMO has too much influence, etc, needs to go back to the ref being the sole adjudicator.

I will never understand this rhetoric - it’s pure revisionist history that the decisions were ‘better’ when TMOs had less oversight.

It would be even worse given the availability and distribution of replays and slow mo footage in the modern era - fans would whinge even more than now.

 

[Wallaby Man]

Eddie gave a pretty good speech about this in the presser, about how the TMO has too much influence, etc, needs to go back to the ref being the sole adjudicator.

Yep and it’s not just us been sore losers mentioning this, if anything it’s clouded winners that aren’t getting exposed to the real thing that the average spectator sees and not what traditionalist consume.

Even silly rules like banning seatbelt tackles is ludicrous and based on some moral crusade and not commonsense.

I didn’t even mention the 7s circuit was spectacularly close to been canned, if it wasn’t for the Olympics link then it would be receiving a shadow of the funding WR (World Rugby) currently props it up with.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I will never understand this rhetoric - it’s pure revisionist history that the decisions were ‘better’ when TMOs had less oversight.

It would be even worse given the availability and distribution of replays and slow mo footage in the modern era - fans would whinge even more than now.

Other than the lack of consistency, which you'll never solve while there's humans involved, I think the current system works as well as it probably can - again, given there's humans involved.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

What are participation rates like for league? Are we slowly moving towards American professional sports where only the very talented kids play in high school and college.

 

[hoggy]

Another classic Geoff Parkes article on the roar today, like clockwork whenever domestic set up comes up for discussion. A real circling of the wagons, whatever happens the Holy Grail of Super Rugby must not be touched, as always a selection of cherry [picked examples of what we should have had done or what's needed.

Any counter argument always met by "you just don't understand the problem'

Its hard to see how any meaningful solution can ever be reached with such entrenched opinions.

This weekend was the pinnacle of Rugby Union with the Wallabies playing in the World Cup in France, contrast that with the NRL & AFL, who came out on top.

We can spend all day on here & whine, but the game here whether we like or not is heading over a cliff.

 

[dru]

First bolded bit: why would you create a competition with more average teams and lower-quality games? NZ doesn't have the depth, or probably the money, for another Super Rugby team and we've seen what happens here when you just start adding franchises. No thanks.

Second bolded bit: You have one or two franchises that have always struggled for results. But historically, Australia hasn't always been so poor across the board as it is now. You either cut a franchise or two to regain that competitive edge or look for the kind of restructure and rebuilding across the country to build that competitiveness again.

Third bolded bit: You say that you don't put out 3rd grade sides against 1st grade. But your domestic-only 3rd grade competition is going to put it's best up against the best from a 1st grade competition? You're gonna put a bunch of these 3rd grade players in one team to compete against theAll Blacks? OK - cool story bro.

Finally, I'm guessing that you are saying that kiwis watch NZ teams play and hence the bigger crowds? But they also 'don't turn up anyway'? Which is it? Do they turn up or don't they?

Hey Bullrush.

1. NZ will have their own drivers for their pro-rugby and your thinking is not an outlier - NZ is welcome to it and understandably will chase their own requirements. The challenge becomes when that self imposed restriction runs against an ability to field a professional competition (insufficient teams). At that point it is transferring NZ drivers onto others. It would be rational to treat your partners with the same respect that you reasonably ask for yourselves.

2. I don't think it is well argued that characteristics taken out of historical context are necessarily relevant to the current. Your view appears to be that the strength exists within existing Australian structures to successfully maintain a professional competition and a competitive International representation - by "condensing" talent. Many of us in Australia doubt this. (If you are unwilling to accept things that have been said on G&GR by now you aren't changing thinking any time soon.) We also confuse necessary commercial success with an optional drive to quality where "quality" means standard of rugby not standard of the competition itself. Reality is these things must be balanced, though our current predicament leaves little to balance with. Yes, if we set a polemic, my primary driver is to rebuild.

3. If your rationale is to lock-in historical context to weight possible pathways forward, why wouldn't this default to when Australian international success was at it's greatest? Players from club rugby (4th tier when the NRC was operating?) straight into the Wallabies. In deed, occasionally from club reserve grade. To be fair I am struggling to see an immediately competitive Wallabies under any of the proposals, including mine. Though I'd hope a domestic rebuild would ultimately see an improved Wallabies in comparison to the current trend via Super.

It isn't just a down-trend east of the Tasman, though you seem to imply success in NZ, fair enough. The reality where I see it, is that Super has failed both NZ and Australia. NZ solution to this seems to be to dictate Australian rugby, which is presumptive. The result from NZ-centric view is that Australia has failed to live up to their side of the agreement which isn't working for NZ. Also fair enough, reasons can be argued, results are correct, or not.

My view is clearly Aus-centric, but I think I reach the same conclusion in reverse (not working for Australia). The reality is that we are locked now in Super for a while. I suspect that if this is to be torn up it is more likely to happen from NZ than from Australia. Right now it would be surprising if this wasn't under discussion within NZRU, perhaps not publicly, but under discussion.

IMO NZ should be looking to how they hold a rugby season together in the absence of the Australian teams. An improvement would be crossing the Tasman at the end of the two seasons. And I'm happy if you insist on some form of condensing talent into 2 or 3 teams at that point.

 

[Wallaby Man]

Way to ruin my public holiday Monday

You’re welcome haha

 

[Wallaby Man]

What are participation rates like for league? Are we slowly moving towards American professional sports where only the very talented kids play in high school and college.

Like most contact sports declining in some areas, they are still extremely strong but the percentage of children participating would be less than 20yrs ago. Most sports would be the same even tho they all saying record numbers, it truly isn’t because they count everyone that’s even remotely exposed to a coaching clinic or school visit etc. However participation or not, they have the one thing that truly matters and that’s the hearts and minds of children which means they will always be relevant.

 

[KOB1987]

Other than the lack of consistency, which you'll never solve while there's humans involved, I think the current system works as well as it probably can - again, given there's humans involved.

I think there is a happy medium. Eddies main gripe was that the Portugal maul (non) try was clearly knocked on so why did we have to watch multiple replays when the first one showed it so obviously. In fairness the TMO only came into the game in the instances it should be used - lead ups to tries and cardable offences - but speed the process up, like the NRL bunker.

 

[Namerican]

Head in the sand has been mentioned many times in recent times but the reality we all have our heads in the sand and that’s the issue no matter if you’re on the sport thriving or not thriving conversation.

By and large people couldn’t give a sh@t if we are an international sport if you are shown 2x the amount of money.

The game at all levels is in serious trouble here in Aus. Only really at the premier clubs do they have the ability to mask some of these issue but they are also a major major part of the problem. Despite the silly metrics Rugby Australia uses to count player numbers the reality is they are declining. School teams are dwindling by the year, real nuts and bolt’s grassroots clubs are closing by the year. Other than in Bris and Syd the ability to have enough numbers for a reserve grade team is considerably worse than it was 10yrs ago.

Our state entities are fools and are as implicit as Rugby Australia for the state of the game. They all mean well but their version of the truth and way forward is clouded in parochialism that attacks the game on a daily basis.

Those saying it’s thriving around the world are deluded as well, the game is in a worse state than it was as the last World Cup. We appear to be approaching 100pt flogging as well which hasn’t really been a thing for almost a decade.

In England the game is on tender hooks and grassroots numbers dramatically dropping, Wales is in almost similar position to us despite their win over us. USA and Canada are struggling despite what many think MLR is doing, there is teams dying in that league on a yearly basis. Scotland isn’t much better but they just have a good high performance set up masking participation issues.

NZ is slowly dropping at grassroots level. It doesn’t have the cut through to the national psyche it once did. The Japanese conversion to tier 1 country isn’t as strong as it was 4yrs ago. On a yearly basis company clubs are closing rugby programs and the tv audience is bringing in almost no money. Italy perpetually stagnating. Romania might as well not exist.

There some positives, Ireland, South Americas and France but that’s about it. South Africa enjoys amazing national support but the franchises are struggling to get people in the crowds.

Then on another front we are fighting a culture war which directly threatens aspects of the game. I’m not anti some of these conversations as concussions are extremely serious, lad culture has its issues and women’s sport requires investment but equally there is no denying these conversations are impacting the sport or in women’s high performance aspect cannot afford the required funds for little return, resources perhaps needed in other areas that can’t afford to be moved. The way in which the leaders of our sport have handled these has been a lesson in what not to do when compared to other contact sports. Yes you could say other sports not taking it seriously however our hyperbolic reaction is threatening the future of the game, something that can’t be said for the likes of the nfl etc.

The game is currently a poor spectacle and getting worse. If you showed 100 people for non rugby nations last nights NRL final vs any current RWC game, 95 of them would prefer the NRL game

Again, prefacing that I'm Canadian. Most of my rugby friends who have played their entire lives also think the constant red cards, TMOs, box kicking, mauls for tries, 6 forwards subs, fake injuries, scrum resets etc. are obscenely boring. We used to get together to watch rugby, but nobody bothers anymore because it's dreadful to watch. Get 10 guys together and the game is over in 5 mins from a red card.

But you then read comments from European posters online and and they seem to love watching some dreadful rugby. Maybe they think it diminishes the success of their teams in recent years if you point out that the state of the sport is dire in terms of being a spectacle. I don't get it. And I was an unskilled smashmouth kind of player and can certainly appreciate a hard physical game. But endless one up hitups, box kicks, milking penalties, mauls and reset scrums is awful to watch. Some of those things is fine, but when it is the entire sport something has gone wrong.

It seems like whomever is drafting the laws has no clue what they are doing. Half of their new laws have had the opposite impact as intended. Take the 50-22 for example. Regardless of whether you like that or not, the idea was that it would promote running rugby as a team would supposedly be more likely to keep a winger back to prevent the 50-22. I'd argue that the complete opposite has happened and now you just have teams kicking more than ever on the off chance it dribbles out of bounds. You are telling me the highlight of the sport is a player kicking a ball dead? Followed by a maul?

Same thing for the Richie McCaw tackler law whereby you can't jackal without coming through the gate. Was supposed to promote running rugby. All it has done is prevent exciting turnovers that lead to running rugby and ensured endless one up hitups.

 

[KOB1987]

What kind of salary cap would you need to run a 7-team domestic comp (plus Drua)? $3m with 33-man squad would be approx 90k average. That’d be enough to keep some young talent in the game. You’d lose a lot of the middle though.

I think we just resign to the fact it’d be an u23 comp

This is kind of what I was alluding to as being the solution the other day. Rather than creating a third tier, create a professional u23s comp with say 12 teams, which are feeder clubs to the Super franchises. Target an audience of the same age group (much like college footy in the USA) and modify the rules so that game is sped up, but that retain development of the core skills. A top player would get a salary and 2 top ups - the Super Rugby one and the Wallabies one.

 

[Namerican]

Eddie gave a pretty good speech about this in the presser, about how the TMO has too much influence, etc, needs to go back to the ref being the sole adjudicator.

Give the Captain one challenge per game where he can send it to the TMO on a scoring play. If he's right he keeps the right to challenge again, if not then the game is adjudicated strictly based on what the ref calls. You used your challenge poorly and don't have one? That's on you, not the ref. No controversy.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

This is kind of what I was alluding to as being the solution the other day. Rather than creating a third tier, create a professional u23s comp with say 12 teams, which are feeder clubs to the Super franchises. Target an audience of the same age group (much like college footy in the USA) and modify the rules so that game is sped up, but that retain development of the core skills. A top player would get a salary and 2 top ups - the Super Rugby one and the Wallabies one.

That's kind of not the worst idea going. Not sure if 12 is doable but 8 certainly would be. Looking at the U16s and 19 Super Rugby Au I could see the 5 going to 8 if you bring in a 2nd Qld (Reds White) team and 2 more NSW teams (NSW White and Sydney Juniors) and you would have your 8 teams. Something similar could be done for a U23s competition.

 

[Wilson]

Give the Captain one challenge per game where he can send it to the TMO on a scoring play. If he's right he keeps the right to challenge again, if not then the game is adjudicated strictly based on what the ref calls. You used your challenge poorly and don't have one? That's on you, not the ref. No controversy.

They trialed Captain's challenge in Super Rugby Aotearoa and it was a shit show. Bringing it back and then removing the TMO for all other calls would be even worse.

 

[Dan54]

Another classic Geoff Parkes article on the roar today, like clockwork whenever domestic set up comes up for discussion. A real circling of the wagons, whatever happens the Holy Grail of Super Rugby must not be touched, as always a selection of cherry [picked examples of what we should have had done or what's needed.

Any counter argument always met by "you just don't understand the problem'

Its hard to see how any meaningful solution can ever be reached with such entrenched opinions.

This weekend was the pinnacle of Rugby Union with the Wallabies playing in the World Cup in France, contrast that with the NRL & AFL, who came out on top.

We can spend all day on here & whine, but the game here whether we like or not is heading over a cliff.

I actually thought that write up had a lot of real good points. I got from it that rugby needs to live within it's means and plan accordingly.
I don't think you should ignore the whole article because you don't agree with one or two points. That is what I think perhaps creates the present problems, not cherry picking good ideas.

 

[NoName]

This is kind of what I was alluding to as being the solution the other day. Rather than creating a third tier, create a professional u23s comp with say 12 teams, which are feeder clubs to the Super franchises. Target an audience of the same age group (much like college footy in the USA) and modify the rules so that game is sped up, but that retain development of the core skills. A top player would get a salary and 2 top ups - the Super Rugby one and the Wallabies one.

^^^ this - and pump whatever time is possible into the referees and coaches in this set up. Good local referee development will result in better discipline at the inetrnational level.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I know it's all a bit shit right now, but some of the chat here and on the Roar is bordering on death-riding the code. It's also not helped by the continued political sniping from entrenched factions in the game.

It's also not enough to simply say sack everyone, shut down everything and start again. Name me a successful organisation that's actually done this.

There are, however, some good suggestions that have come and they're welcome. Phil Waugh has been in the job five minutes, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. I know he's also a passionate rugby man and have no doubt he wants to improve the game.

I hope what happens in the aftermath of our exit from this RWC is that the Board and executive convene a summit with interested parties from club land all the way through to the high-performance programmes and chart a course forward and do it together. That would mean everyone putting aside some of their personal biases and grudges, for the good of the game. If we don't do this we'll end up divided and third rate.

I was out for a walk early this morning and thinking about some positive steps we could take. The situation is retrievable and it's not like rugby in this country hasn't endured as bad or worse before.

I've got a longer post about steps we could take that I'll put up later.

 

[SouthernX]

In terms of video refereeing… I think all reviews should come via the referee… the TMO should STFU on instigating his own review

It’s maddening when you watch a match, there’s a great try but it’s going back for TMO review for a penalty/kick on that happened 90 seconds before back in the scoring teams own territory.

Bring back infringements missed by the referee being dealt with a judiciary later in the week.

 

[Derpus]

The NRL final last night was a better than any game of rugby I've seen in the last decade. The game has problems on all sides. Its slow and indecipherable, its predictable (in so far as who will win - the reffing is a coin flip) and even overseas it's pretty poorly run (see world cup draw shenanigans, corruption of senior execs etc). And then there are the 500+ issues facing the game that are unique to Australia and NZ.

They really, really need to go back to the drawing board and focus on a tight domestic competition that can address some of the broader and local issues on a small scale and build from there.

I don't see what's holding them back. There is nothing left to lose. They have no money and the Wallabies have no international standing.

 

[Dan54]

IMO NZ should be looking to how they hold a rugby season together in the absence of the Australian teams.

I would suggest that could possibly be why Jaguares have been offered a spot supposedly from 2026?
I don't think it will come to that, but I suspect could have something to do with in case? Also if Aus did go domestic, and expanded by a couple of teams I honestly think without reform the weakened teams could well be finding they struggle against Drua? And if the the problem is no Aus team being guaranteed winning comp they would have to shed Drua.