Australian Rugby / RA

[HogansHeros]

Sorry. Did you just say that the thing that Wallabies have relied on is the top pro comp we are in? No shit Sherlock. The question is whether Super is the right pro comp in Australia. And by the commercials it just is not. By the engagement and strength of the grass roots, it is not. By the success within that comp, it is not.

Be interested in hearing if it is currently successful by any metric

 

[Doritos Day]

And why do they have more interest? Because fans don’t think their team can beat a NZ team. The Reds had no problems with fan engagement in 2011 when they were winning…

To be honest I think non-Australians should stop commenting on what needs to happen to Australian rugby because while meaning well there is such a lack of understanding on the real problems and feelings on the ground.

Of course a Kiwi perspective would favour Super Rugby, because it suits their intended purpose; All Black trials.

That's not good enough in Aus. Things need to change. Open selection across countries would be a good start if the current competition model is to be retained (it shouldn't). I liked the comparison with NHL.

 

[Bullrush]

Improve how exactly? Feel free to provide an idea other than “just play better”

On top of that, this is about trying to find ways to make the Rugby product more marketable. Having a comp where less than half the teams are of any interest to the Australian public is a Hardly appealing to broadcasters. Just as I’m certain the Waratahs vs the Force would do dreadful numbers in NZ

As said earlier, please enlighten us on your grand plan to "just be better".

If you want to improve pathways, high performance centres and professionalism in general, you need money. How do you get money? You need a good product. How do you get a good product in sport? You get people watching and increase ticket sales and eyes on screens, increasing the value of broadcast deals. How do you do that? Well you need a competition that people want to watch. What do people want to watch? NRL and AFL... or a competition where their Australian side is winning. Simple solution, stop playing NZ. Create a competition that creates revenue and maybe we can restart the path to being a highly professional sport.

He can't because, like everyone else, he doesn't have a clue. Because Super Rugby is completely fucked.

And that is where a lot of us are as well, NZ & Aus both run there own domestic. And then explore cross-over options, maybe a champions league with Japan & SA.
But it must come from a domestic base, NZ may have a 12 team domestic comp, Aus 8 teams whatever suits there own market & financials.

But as soon as we mention Domestic competition, its like we're advocating to turn into North Korea.

What I advocate for is nothing strange or extraordinary or weird. Every one of the best countries in the world has their pro teams in international competitions - including Australia who was ranked either 2nd and 3rd in the world for a considerable period. None of the most successful countries are based on a domestic-only competition. I'm not trying to recreate the wheel.

The Waratahs vs Force would probably do terrible numbers anywhere. Super Rugby attendance numbers are hard to find but from the limited numbers that are available, guess what game had the best attendance for the Reds in 2023? Reds vs Crusaders. The 3rd best game for the Red? Reds vs Hurricanes. The 2nd best attendance at GIO Stadium? Brumbies vs Hurricanes. The worst attended games you may ask? Force vs Moana Pasifika and the Force vs Rebels. It's almost like fans want to go to games that they think will provide a quality product. Why aren't fans flocking to these local derbies that they already have access to?

What's the point of cross-over games between an Australian and NZ comp? We already saw what happened when Super Rugby Au and Super Rugby Aotearoa had their 'cross-over' games. The whole reason you guys want to get rid of Super Rugby is because you're not competitive. Somehow, you think you'll magically get better after playing among yourselves for 12-15 rounds? If anything, we need MORE Super Rugby.

You guys are asking a guy in the forum about how to improve the standards of rugby across Australia? Not only is the argument fallacious - just because I don't know the answer to that doesn't make my point invalid - but seriously?? Without going down the 'reduce Australian teams' line....I've posted an article that quotes Steve Anderson and David Nucifora, Australians who went to Ireland and did exactly what you're asking me to provide. In 2000, Ireland was losing to Argentina and getting draws with Canada. Yes, fucken Canada. They had won just 12 of the previous 56 games in the 5 Nations. 8 wooden spoons in the previous 20 years. Imagine if Ireland had the same loser attitude as what is on show here.

"We never win so let's stop playing the teams that always beat us."

Does Australia need a domestic comp? Yes. But if that's the totality of your plan to revive rugby, just fucken dig the grave now. Again, no other team in the top 7 countries in the world take this approach.

 

[Bullrush]

To be honest I think non-Australians should stop commenting on what needs to happen to Australian rugby because while meaning well there is such a lack of understanding on the real problems and feelings on the ground.

Of course a Kiwi perspective would favour Super Rugby, because it suits their intended purpose; All Black trials.

That's not good enough in Aus. Things need to change. Open selection across countries would be a good start if the current competition model is to be retained (it shouldn't). I liked the comparison with NHL.

Fuck off. I've addressed this dumb fucken idea before. I live here, I'm invested here and I'm involved here so I'll comment if I want to.

 

[Tomthumb]

What I advocate for is nothing strange or extraordinary or weird. Every one of the best countries in the world has their pro teams in international competitions - including Australia who was ranked either 2nd and 3rd in the world for a considerable period. None of the most successful countries are based on a domestic-only competition. I'm not trying to recreate the wheel.

The Waratahs vs Force would probably do terrible numbers anywhere. Super Rugby attendance numbers are hard to find but from the limited numbers that are available, guess what game had the best attendance for the Reds in 2023? Reds vs Crusaders. The 3rd best game for the Red? Reds vs Hurricanes. The 2nd best attendance at GIO Stadium? Brumbies vs Hurricanes. The worst attended games you may ask? Force vs Moana Pasifika and the Force vs Rebels. It's almost like fans want to go to games that they think will provide a quality product. Why aren't fans flocking to these local derbies that they already have access to?

What's the point of cross-over games between an Australian and NZ comp? We already saw what happened when Super Rugby Au and Super Rugby Aotearoa had their 'cross-over' games. The whole reason you guys want to get rid of Super Rugby is because you're not competitive. Somehow, you think you'll magically get better after playing among yourselves for 12-15 rounds? If anything, we need MORE Super Rugby.

You guys are asking a guy in the forum about how to improve the standards of rugby across Australia? Not only is the argument fallacious - just because I don't know the answer to that doesn't make my point invalid - but seriously?? Without going down the 'reduce Australian teams' line....I've posted an article that quotes Steve Anderson and David Nucifora, Australians who went to Ireland and did exactly what you're asking me to provide. In 2000, Ireland was losing to Argentina and getting draws with Canada. Yes, fucken Canada. They had won just 12 of the previous 56 games in the 5 Nations. 8 wooden spoons in the previous 20 years. Imagine if Ireland had the same loser attitude as what is on show here.

"We never win so let's stop playing the teams that always beat us."

Does Australia need a domestic comp? Yes. But if that's the totality of your plan to revive rugby, just fucken dig the grave now. Again, no other team in the top 7 countries in the world take this approach.

Did you read any of the comment’s that you quoted?

No one is saying we don’t want Super Rugby because it’s “too competitive” ffs, we are saying is is a terrible competition on a commercial level, making it impossible for Australian Rugby to get a good TV deal. And without a good TV deal, we have no money, and without any money how the fuck are we going to implement any changes that anyone recommends?

And the whole “Do what Ireland did” isn’t really possible without a time machine. Irish Rugby has been centralised since the advent of professionalism in 2001, meaning Irish Rugby already owned all the clubs and making things more streamlined was quite simple

 

[hoggy]

Does Australia need a domestic comp? Yes. But if that's the totality of your plan to revive rugby, just fucken dig the grave now. Again, no other team in the top 7 countries in the world take this approach.

None of us ever said that, it was never the totality of the plan. It was just implied straight away whenever a domestic option was offered.

Lovely Rant, but did you actually read any of the counter arguments.

 

[NoName]

Sorry. Did you just say that the thing that Wallabies have relied on is the top pro comp we are in? No shit Sherlock. The question is whether Super is the right pro comp in Australia. And by the commercials it just is not. By the engagement and strength of the grass roots, it is not. By the success within that comp, it is not.

Nice attitude considering how often you tell others off for far less.

If Australians want to watch Australians bash other Australians week in and week out there are two other codes delivering a consistent product. As a business we are no longer competing with them for the same product.

Our point of difference is the international product and laws that can produce an 11/10 spectacle once in a while. They are our product

Isolating ourselves in the past or the future will result in 96-12 test results. We would have been a tier 2 side if super rugby didn't exist for us in the past. And we will be tier 2 forever more if we leave that international product now.

The attitude I'm reading on here is one of utter defeat. "We can't beat new Zealand teams so we need to not play them" is what I am responding to.

That's fucked.

 

[HogansHeros]

I dont think anyone who is arguing for a domestic comp is trying to rule out playing internationally completely.
The more successful nations out there also have strong domestic comps. Currie Cup, NPC, Premiership Rugby, Top14... All with strong followings... in our current context i can only see a tier 3 domestic comp being viable, then building on it. Maybe its the top teams from there play in a pacific champions comp.

 

[kiap]

"We can't beat new Zealand teams so we need to not play them" is what I am responding to.

That's fucked.

Nah. Think you'll find most want to play NZ teams.

But the Oz comp should be First + Foremost.

Can add on Transnational / Champ Cup after it.

 

[NoName]

Nah. Think you'll find most want to play NZ teams.

But the Oz comp should be First + Foremost.

Can add on Transnational / Champ Cup after it.

The transnational comp /champ cup after it will be worse though. A couple of far diluted and under exposed Australian teams against the best the kiwi NPC have to offer????? If super rugby is uninteresting because the results are foregone conclusions then the alternative product that is being offered will be even more lopsided. If the states can't get one team right for super rugby there is zero chance any of them can get several teams right.

The states need to own the problem and sort their shit out, stop trying to manufacture a way to be competitive without actually needing to compete and get better.

Eliminate the conference system altogether.

 

[Ignoto]

The attitude I'm reading on here is one of utter defeat. "We can't beat new Zealand teams so we need to not play them" is what I am responding to.

No, the attitude is towards a competition that begins at essentially, the start of March and is effectively over by mid to late June. The other codes run from the start of March and end today, the beginning of October. i.e. close to double the amount of local games

There's absolutely no reason why our internationals can't run from September to November every year. But, that would rely on the NH countries pulling their heads out of the sand and realising there's more to the game than the 6 nations.

We just want more rugby in Australia, it's that simple.

 

[hoggy]

The states need to own the problem and sort their shit out, stop trying to manufacture a way to be competitive without actually needing to compete and get better.

No probs, we'll sort that out next week for you.

 

[NoName]

No probs, we'll sort that out next week for you.

I could say exactly the same back to all you that are saying "just make a domestic comp that is magically attractive to the local market and produces internationally competitive teams"

Coz that is exactly what you are proposing.

 

[RebelYell]

The biggest thing is number of professional games played, not the opponent. Build combinations and get lived experience.

 

[Doritos Day]

I don’t understand a hard pro-Super perspective because the status quo is verifiably not working.

Anyway all this is irrelevant unless a completely independent team is running the competition for the sole purpose of making it the best it can be. But RA/NZRU can’t even agree on that. So yet again it’s all pointless discussion.

 

[Snowy]

The same mob that talk about oz rugby shrinking to greatness never seem to think about that the kiwis should expand to equal out he comp , you need any comp to have unpredictability which in general we don't have. The same tiered old argument that you have to play the best to be the best is BS its why we don't put out a 3rd grade sides against 1st grade no one is going to learn anything they didnt already know.
Yes our point of difference is that we play internationally , lets do that in a champions league or at Wallabies level . Yes the games against the Kiwis have some of the biggest crowed numbers but if they don't have their kiwi sides to watch live in Oz , and I'm talking even second generation Kiwis here perhaps they might pick a local side - or not no loss if they don't as they don't turn up anyway

 

[Doritos Day]

Australia's best players have been rested in the tough away games the past two Super seasons.

This needs to be fixed.

 

[Tomikin]

He can't because, like everyone else, he doesn't have a clue. Because Super Rugby is completely fucked.

No we just go to 3 teams that's there option decrease the opportunities for rugby players in the country.. so we fight for talent with less positions available.. bullshit

 

[Linerunner2023]

Watching the nrl and afl grand final weekend with no talk on rugby in Australia
Rugby is not even in the same postcode atm
Literally rugby would kill to emulate these two codes - how they are set up, teams, supporters, money etc
The super rugby comp is now considers just a trial for wallabies
No one cares about it anymore, it will take decades to get something like nrl and afl have on this country now but they need to start somewhere

 

[Dan54]

No, the attitude is towards a competition that begins at essentially, the start of March and is effectively over by mid to late June. The other codes run from the start of March and end today, the beginning of October. i.e. close to double the amount of local games

There's absolutely no reason why our internationals can't run from September to November every year. But, that would rely on the NH countries pulling their heads out of the sand and realising there's more to the game than the 6 nations.

We just want more rugby in Australia, it's that simple.

While I agree the Sept-Nov test season is good for us probably, the idea that NH needs to pull their heads out of sand and have their season to suit us is perhaps us down here burying our heads in sand and think we are only ones?