Australian Rugby / RA

[Namerican]

It seems like the biggest problem with Super Rugby is that it doesn't generate enough revenue. If you don't have enough revenue then you can't afford to give out contracts to players that end up going over to league or overseas. And it makes the sport as a whole less enticing and the standard of play drops when there isn't enough money on offer.

I'm not Australian, but I can't see the appeal of watching a club competition where 5 teams are pretty much always better than the other 5 and by a large margin. What's the joy in going to watch your club get shitkicked by the Crusaders for the 30th year in a row? And the stands seem to reflect the lack of interest these games. Either NZ spread out the talent and allow ABs to be picked from Aussie teams or keep the comp in Australia. Super Rugby needs to be something interesting and offer fans hope and something worth watching.

In ice hockey Canada had about 80% of the best players on Earth back in the early 1970's, but Canada is a small country with not that many markets that can support pro hockey. They expanded the NHL all over the USA and Canada's best players ended up in Miami, L.A., NY, and Arizona. 50 years later there are like 31 NHL teams, the average payroll is nearly $100M/team and hockey in Canada is as strong as ever, but the USA also now produces amazing players. A Canadian NHL team hasn't won the club competition since 1993 and we only have have 7 teams, but the sport is way better off for it. If we'd kept the best players in Canada we would have curbstomped the USA teams for like 30 years, the sport never would have grown and we'd have a hard time competing with players that want to play soccer, football, and basketball. The most beloved sportsmen in my town is Swedish and nobody bats an eyelash.

If they can't generate enough revenue through Super Rugby I can't see how rugby in NZ/Australia will grow or even sustain itself. You can't run a sport based solely on the revenue from a national team. Super Rugby games should have 20,000-30,000 people at every game, at minimum. It looks on TV like many games have like 5,000-10,000, at most.

 

[PhilClinton]

I had no idea rugby league were paying for kids to go to private schools, You have to admire their creativity and spread.

In Brisbane at least you’d be surprised by the amount of kiwis that are being sent to private schools here on behalf of league sides.

Lots of gun 14/15yr olds who tear the competition up in age rugby but then aren’t allowed to play 1st XV due to their contracts.

The Storm had about 8 going through Marist Ashgrove a couple years back at one time.

 

[wamberal99]

No one cares about it anymore, it will take decades to get something like nrl and afl have on this country now but they need to start somewhere

A couple of decades ago our game was a serious rival for league. Now we are a laughing stock. The best we can hope for is to survive as a professional sport. That will only happen if the Northern Hemisphere powerbrokers get their heads out of their bums and simplify the Laws of the Game. A casual viewer has no idea what is going on half the time, particularly at the breakdown. Not to mention the ridiculous dominance of the scrum, which used to be a way to restart play after a minor infringement, but which has become an attacking weapon for strong sides.

Wake up, World Rugby. If you want us to survive, try to watch the game through the eyes of a possible convert.

Finally, and most importantly, we need to set achievable objectives. We will never be as strong as either the NRL or the AFl. That train has gone.

 

[KOB1987]

We don’t need to beat NRL and AFL. we need to coexist with them. They are domestic products, rugby is an international product and to be competitive we need to attract the best athletes. If the best player from each NRL and AFL team had never gone to those sports and played rugby from the outset, the Wallabies would be #1 in the world, and the other 2 codes would be just as strong. No one would know any different and everyone is happy.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

What kind of salary cap would you need to run a 7-team domestic comp (plus Drua)? $3m with 33-man squad would be approx 90k average. That’d be enough to keep some young talent in the game. You’d lose a lot of the middle though.

 

[hoggy]

We don’t need to beat NRL and AFL. we need to coexist with them. They are domestic products, rugby is an international product and to be competitive we need to attract the best athletes. If the best player from each NRL and AFL team had never gone to those sports and played rugby from the outset, the Wallabies would be #1 in the world, and the other 2 codes would be just as strong. No one would know any different and everyone is happy.

Exactly, so why not at least leverage the one big advantage they have over us. Domestic content, as you say we don't need to beat them.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

To be honest I think non-Australians should stop commenting on what needs to happen to Australian rugby

 

[LeCheese]

What kind of salary cap would you need to run a 7-team domestic comp (plus Drua)? $3m with 33-man squad would be approx 90k average. That’d be enough to keep some young talent in the game. You’d lose a lot of the middle though.

No where near enough.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

No where near enough.

I think we just resign to the fact it’d be an u23 comp

 

[RugbyReg]

In Brisbane at least you’d be surprised by the amount of kiwis that are being sent to private schools here on behalf of league sides.

Lots of gun 14/15yr olds who tear the competition up in age rugby but then aren’t allowed to play 1st XV due to their contracts.

The Storm had about 8 going through Marist Ashgrove a couple years back at one time.

What contract has restricted them playing firsts? Pretty much all leaguies with contracts are playing firsts I thought.

The schools don’t give a shit about rugby. They’ll play whoever they want as long as they get the wins.

 

[Bullrush]

The same mob that talk about oz rugby shrinking to greatness never seem to think about that the kiwis should expand to equal out he comp , you need any comp to have unpredictability which in general we don't have. The same tiered old argument that you have to play the best to be the best is BS its why we don't put out a 3rd grade sides against 1st grade no one is going to learn anything they didnt already know.
Yes our point of difference is that we play internationally , lets do that in a champions league or at Wallabies level . Yes the games against the Kiwis have some of the biggest crowed numbers but if they don't have their kiwi sides to watch live in Oz , and I'm talking even second generation Kiwis here perhaps they might pick a local side - or not no loss if they don't as they don't turn up anyway

First bolded bit: why would you create a competition with more average teams and lower-quality games? NZ doesn't have the depth, or probably the money, for another Super Rugby team and we've seen what happens here when you just start adding franchises. No thanks.

Second bolded bit: You have one or two franchises that have always struggled for results. But historically, Australia hasn't always been so poor across the board as it is now. You either cut a franchise or two to regain that competitive edge or look for the kind of restructure and rebuilding across the country to build that competitiveness again.

Third bolded bit: You say that you don't put out 3rd grade sides against 1st grade. But your domestic-only 3rd grade competition is going to put it's best up against the best from a 1st grade competition? You're gonna put a bunch of these 3rd grade players in one team to compete against theAll Blacks? OK - cool story bro.

Finally, I'm guessing that you are saying that kiwis watch NZ teams play and hence the bigger crowds? But they also 'don't turn up anyway'? Which is it? Do they turn up or don't they?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ it's also often suggested/ stated on here that NZ has already added a sixth team. Doesn't seem to have equalled out the comp much...

 

[Bullrush]

Did you read any of the comment’s that you quoted?

No one is saying we don’t want Super Rugby because it’s “too competitive” ffs, we are saying is is a terrible competition on a commercial level, making it impossible for Australian Rugby to get a good TV deal. And without a good TV deal, we have no money, and without any money how the fuck are we going to implement any changes that anyone recommends?

And the whole “Do what Ireland did” isn’t really possible without a time machine. Irish Rugby has been centralised since the advent of professionalism in 2001, meaning Irish Rugby already owned all the clubs and making things more streamlined was quite simple

Why do Australians think it's terrible?

Because they don't win. There were no Reds or Tah fans saying it was a shit competition in 2011 and 2014.

Yes - the competition has had some shit years with confusing conferences and bad time zones etc but none of that is an issue with SA, Argentina and Japan gone. You guys say it's shit now because you're not competitive. Fans aren't engaged because they don't think their teams are competitive against the NZ teams and the local derby matches are not great quality.

Instead of trying to work out how to make Australia competitive again - drop franchises or massive overhaul - your answer is to provide more of the lower quality games. And that's where the great revenue bonanza will come from. LOL

The whole moan about Ireland is just more of the defeatist, "We can't do what the best countries do" attitude.

 

[Adam84]

It’s getting pretty tiring hearing from kiwis that Australia should cut teams; as if super rugby in New Zealand is a raging success and getting massive crowds each week.

yeah yeah yeah someone will say “tv ratings grew 10% last year in New Zealand”…. Ignoring that they’d also halved the preceding 3 years..

if you can’t recognise that super rugby as a commercial product is broken and lacking engagement, regardless of the number of Aussie teams, then you’ve got your head in the sand.

 

[NoName]

It’s getting pretty tiring hearing from kiwis

Awfully presumptive.

 

[PhilClinton]

What contract has restricted them playing firsts? Pretty much all leaguies with contracts are playing firsts I thought.

The schools don’t give a shit about rugby. They’ll play whoever they want as long as they get the wins.

The clubs paying their school fees have stopped them.

Definitely not all of them, but I know a couple of blokes who’ve gone through Ashgrove in last couple of years haven’t taken the field for 1sts but are currently in the Storm setup. Whether it’s strictly them being told not to play or being sent off to team camps during the season.

Going back a while now but I know Dane Gagai had to seek permission from the Cowboys to play for BBC and GPS in yr12.

 

[Tomthumb]

Why do Australians think it's terrible?

Because they don't win. There were no Reds or Tah fans saying it was a shit competition in 2011 and 2014.

Yes - the competition has had some shit years with confusing conferences and bad time zones etc but none of that is an issue with SA, Argentina and Japan gone. You guys say it's shit now because you're not competitive. Fans aren't engaged because they don't think their teams are competitive against the NZ teams and the local derby matches are not great quality.

Instead of trying to work out how to make Australia competitive again - drop franchises or massive overhaul - your answer is to provide more of the lower quality games. And that's where the great revenue bonanza will come from. LOL

The whole moan about Ireland is just more of the defeatist, "We can't do what the best countries do" attitude.

Brumbies win plenty, and they are essentially broke. Fan's aren't engaged with "franchises" that they have no connection with, win or lose

Dropping franchises makes absolutely no sense, did we see an improvement after the Force were culled? We are the ones suggesting a major overhaul, you are just desperate for us to stay in this Super Comp that has done nothing for Rugby fandom in 20 years on either side of the ditch

Moan about Ireland? I'm just pointing out to you that their system was always centralized and didn't require them trying to take over Club teams. It's apples and Oranges

 

[Wallaby Man]

Head in the sand has been mentioned many times in recent times but the reality we all have our heads in the sand and that’s the issue no matter if you’re on the sport thriving or not thriving conversation.

By and large people couldn’t give a sh@t if we are an international sport if you are shown 2x the amount of money.

The game at all levels is in serious trouble here in Aus. Only really at the premier clubs do they have the ability to mask some of these issue but they are also a major major part of the problem. Despite the silly metrics RA uses to count player numbers the reality is they are declining. School teams are dwindling by the year, real nuts and bolt’s grassroots clubs are closing by the year. Other than in Bris and Syd the ability to have enough numbers for a reserve grade team is considerably worse than it was 10yrs ago.

Our state entities are fools and are as implicit as RA for the state of the game. They all mean well but their version of the truth and way forward is clouded in parochialism that attacks the game on a daily basis.

Those saying it’s thriving around the world are deluded as well, the game is in a worse state than it was as the last World Cup. We appear to be approaching 100pt flogging as well which hasn’t really been a thing for almost a decade.

In England the game is on tender hooks and grassroots numbers dramatically dropping, Wales is in almost similar position to us despite their win over us. USA and Canada are struggling despite what many think MLR is doing, there is teams dying in that league on a yearly basis. Scotland isn’t much better but they just have a good high performance set up masking participation issues.

NZ is slowly dropping at grassroots level. It doesn’t have the cut through to the national psyche it once did. The Japanese conversion to tier 1 country isn’t as strong as it was 4yrs ago. On a yearly basis company clubs are closing rugby programs and the tv audience is bringing in almost no money. Italy perpetually stagnating. Romania might as well not exist.

There some positives, Ireland, South Americas and France but that’s about it. South Africa enjoys amazing national support but the franchises are struggling to get people in the crowds.

Then on another front we are fighting a culture war which directly threatens aspects of the game. I’m not anti some of these conversations as concussions are extremely serious, lad culture has its issues and women’s sport requires investment but equally there is no denying these conversations are impacting the sport or in women’s high performance aspect cannot afford the required funds for little return, resources perhaps needed in other areas that can’t afford to be moved. The way in which the leaders of our sport have handled these has been a lesson in what not to do when compared to other contact sports. Yes you could say other sports not taking it seriously however our hyperbolic reaction is threatening the future of the game, something that can’t be said for the likes of the nfl etc.

The game is currently a poor spectacle and getting worse. If you showed 100 people for non rugby nations last nights NRL final vs any current RWC game, 95 of them would prefer the NRL game

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

Head in the sand has been mentioned many times in recent times but the reality we all have our heads in the sand and that’s the issue no matter if you’re on the sport thriving or not thriving conversation.

By and large people couldn’t give a sh@t if we are an international sport if you are shown 2x the amount of money.

The game at all levels is in serious trouble here in Aus. Only really at the premier clubs do they have the ability to mask some of these issue but they are also a major major part of the problem. Despite the silly metrics Rugby Australia uses to count player numbers the reality is they are declining. School teams are dwindling by the year, real nuts and bolt’s grassroots clubs are closing by the year. Other than in Bris and Syd the ability to have enough numbers for a reserve grade team is considerably worse than it was 10yrs ago.

Our state entities are fools and are as implicit as Rugby Australia for the state of the game. They all mean well but their version of the truth and way forward is clouded in parochialism that attacks the game on a daily basis.

Those saying it’s thriving around the world are deluded as well, the game is in a worse state than it was as the last World Cup. We appear to be approaching 100pt flogging as well which hasn’t really been a thing for almost a decade.

In England the game is on tender hooks and grassroots numbers dramatically dropping, Wales is in almost similar position to us despite their win over us. USA and Canada are struggling despite what many think MLR is doing, there is teams dying in that league on a yearly basis. Scotland isn’t much better but they just have a good high performance set up masking participation issues.

NZ is slowly dropping at grassroots level. It doesn’t have the cut through to the national psyche it once did. The Japanese conversion to tier 1 country isn’t as strong as it was 4yrs ago. On a yearly basis company clubs are closing rugby programs and the tv audience is bringing in almost no money. Italy perpetually stagnating. Romania might as well not exist.

There some positives, Ireland, South Americas and France but that’s about it. South Africa enjoys amazing national support but the franchises are struggling to get people in the crowds.

Then on another front we are fighting a culture war which directly threatens aspects of the game. I’m not anti some of these conversations as concussions are extremely serious, lad culture has its issues and women’s sport requires investment but equally there is no denying these conversations are impacting the sport or in women’s high performance aspect cannot afford the required funds for little return, resources perhaps needed in other areas that can’t afford to be moved. The way in which the leaders of our sport have handled these has been a lesson in what not to do when compared to other contact sports. Yes you could say other sports not taking it seriously however our hyperbolic reaction is threatening the future of the game, something that can’t be said for the likes of the nfl etc.

The game is currently a poor spectacle and getting worse. If you showed 100 people for non rugby nations last nights NRL final vs any current RWC game, 95 of them would prefer the NRL game

Way to ruin my public holiday Monday

 

[KOB1987]

The game is currently a poor spectacle and getting worse. If you showed 100 people for non rugby nations last nights NRL final vs any current RWC game, 95 of them would prefer the NRL game

Eddie gave a pretty good speech about this in the presser, about how the TMO has too much influence, etc, needs to go back to the ref being the sole adjudicator.