Australian Rugby / RA

[Highlander35]

Final post on this topic. Post Force axing.

Player	New Club	Final continuous Super Season for Australian side	Total Seasons
Ainsley	Rebels	2020​	3​
Daley	Rebels	2019​	2​
Faulkner	Rebels	2023​	6​
Vui	Waratahs	2020​	3​
Rangi	Rebels	2020​	3​
Arnold	Brumbies	2018​	1​
Coleman	Rebels	2019​	2​
Phillip	Rebels	2023​	6​
Cottrell	Rebels	2020​	3​
Hardwick	Rebels	2023​	6​
RHP	Rebels	2022​	5​
Naisarani	Brumbies	2021​	4​
Mitch Short	Waratahs	2020​	3​
Lance	Reds	2018​	1​
Meakes	Rebels	2020​	3​
Peni	Brumbies	2019​	2​
Rona	Waratahs	2019​	2​
Verity-Amm	Brumbies	2018​	1​
DHP	Rebels	2021​	4​
Newsome	Waratahs	2022​	5​
Average			3.25​

Sugar hit. Not even including those lost over that offseason from other sides or future offseasons due to the squeeze.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

I no longer post much, as my brain tells me, major structural changes needed to be made and each year we slip a little more, and I now believe we have reached a point of no return and a new survival plan is needed because once the aging old boy networks fade, rugby will loose the GPS schools, and its already lost the junior programs a while ago.

Once the Old Boy networks fade corporate support will also start to fall.

Without trying to go over old ground, I have always been of the opinion Rugby needed to make long term structural changes in the late 90's to early 0000’s when Rugby had cash, corporate support, good TV ratings and decent crowds.

Maybe the mods could open up the old thread, with an addition words to, Where To Super Rugby & Australian Rugby.

Simply to emphasise how the world has changed, and how our thinking is clouded in the past. Last week the Matilda's announced a 3 game Olympic qualifier, between Australia, Iran, Philippines and Twain, tickets for all three matches sold out in under an hour at Perth Stadium, so the Saturday game was moved to Optus oval. Thats women's soccer against Asian teams, and will get 100K +, FMD .

Where is our womens competition to counter, Football, AFL, League, Netball & Basketball. Women make decision today.

Unfortunately, the situation is even more dire for Super W. Why wouldn't someone like Arabella McKenzie go and play NRLW? There were 12k out to watch the Knights beat the Broncos up in Newcastle on Sunday arvo.

I guess the NRL and AFL can afford to sink funds into the women's game with their respective surpluses knowing well that they will get a return on their investment soon.

 

[Rebel man]

Unfortunately, the situation is even more dire for Super W. Why wouldn't someone like Arabella McKenzie go and play NRLW? There were 12k out to watch the Knights beat the Broncos up in Newcastle on Sunday arvo.

I guess the NRL and AFL can afford to sink funds into the women's game with their respective surpluses knowing well that they will get a return on their investment soon.

The pay for the AFLW is nuts

 

[Bullrush]

The ‘shrinking to greatness’ comment which keeps getting made is hilarious.

Since 2011 - the first season of the Rebels - Australia has ‘expanded to greatness’ by slipping further down the world rankings each year from 2nd in 2011 to currently 9th.

The answer apparently, is not to shrink the number of Super Rugby clubs to try and produce more competitive teams but shrink the competition to ensure an Australian winner regardless of how mediocre the competition is!

‘Shrinking to greatness’ is exactly how any ‘solutions’ based on a domestic only competition should be described. There are no other Tier 1 countries whose professional teams play only domestic competition.

The problem with Super Rugby in Australia is largely that the Australian teams don’t win. When they were competitive and winning, the Reds, the Waratahs and the Brumbies get crowds and fans follow them.

Build a domestic competition where the Rebels can still play and develop talent. Maybe try and get them into the NPC. But shrinking to greatness by reducing quality competition is madness.

 

[Slim 293]

The ‘shrinking to greatness’ comment which keeps getting made is hilarious.

Since 2011 - the first season of the Rebels - Australia has ‘expanded to greatness’ by slipping further down the world rankings each year from 2nd in 2011 to currently 9th.

Australia also finished 2nd in World Rankings following 2015...

In that same period from 2011-2015 after expansion saw the best results for Australian Super Rugby teams in almost a decade.

Cutting the Force had no positive flow on effect for Australian rugby.

 

[Bullrush]

Australia also finished 2nd in World Rankings following 2015...

In that same period from 2011-2015 after expansion saw the best results for Australian Super Rugby teams in almost a decade.

Cutting the Force had no positive flow on effect for Australian rugby.

The trend has been consistently downward. 2nd in 2015 was a matter of getting to the RWC Final - awesome. But it was a bump in a definite downward trajectory. A trajectory which is mirrored in the Super Rugby results. There have been years when Australian teams have occupied 4 spots of the bottom half of the ladder - sometimes bottom quarter.

RWC rank on this day since 2011:


2011 -2nd

2012 - 2nd

2013 - 4th

2014 - 3rd

2015 - 2nd

2016 - 4th

2017 - 5th

2018 - 5th

2019 - 6th

2020 - 7th

2021 - 7th

2022 - 8th

2023 - 9th

 

[Slim 293]

The trend has been consistently downward. 2nd in 2015 was a matter of getting to the RWC Final - awesome. But it was a bump in a definite downward trajectory. A trajectory which is mirrored in the Super Rugby results. There have been years when Australian teams have occupied 4 spots of the bottom half of the ladder - sometimes bottom quarter.

RWC rank on this day since 2011:


2011 -2nd

2012 - 2nd

2013 - 4th

2014 - 3rd

2015 - 2nd

2016 - 4th

2017 - 5th

2018 - 5th

2019 - 6th

2020 - 7th

2021 - 7th

2022 - 8th

2023 - 9th

Looking at those rankings, it would seem there's no direct correlation between the number of Australian Super Rugby teams and the Wallabies' success...

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I'd be interested in the ranking numbers since 2000

 

[Bullrush]

Also, if the problem is that Australia has all this talent that they can’t hold on to because there aren’t enough professional teams for them to get signed to, as I have seen stated here by some, why did the Force and Rebels need exemptions for their overseas player numbers and why were they signing foreign guys who were considered well past their best playing days? Why not sign all this abundant talent to save it from going to Ireland and Japan etc?

 

[Bullrush]

I'd be interested in the ranking numbers since 2000

The website only goes back to 2003


2003 - 3rd

2004 - 2nd

2005 - 3rd

2006 - 3rd

2007 - 2nd

2008 - 3rd

2009 - 3rd

2010 - 2nd

 

[Bullrush]

Australia also finished 2nd in World Rankings following 2015...

In that same period from 2011-2015 after expansion saw the best results for Australian Super Rugby teams in almost a decade.

Cutting the Force had no positive flow on effect for Australian rugby.

When were the Force cut and for how long?

edit: BTW - I wouldn’t cut the Force if I had to choose between them and the Rebels.

 

[Slim 293]

When were the Force cut and for how long?

They were cut after 2017, and then reintroduced into Super Rugby Au in 2020...

 

[Wilson]

Also, if the problem is that Australia has all this talent that they can’t hold on to because there aren’t enough professional teams for them to get signed to, as I have seen stated here by some, why did the Force and Rebels need exemptions for their overseas player numbers and why were they signing foreign guys who were considered well past their best playing days? Why not sign all this abundant talent to save it from going to Ireland and Japan etc?

For the most part money*. Australia has the top flight talent for 5 teams but not the money required to fill them with Australians. As a result a portion of that top flight talent leaves overseas for bigger deals and is replaced by international talent (or lesser Australian players). This is part of why cutting teams doesn't make much difference long term - less teams means less content to sell and less money to share between the teams that remain. Australia having 5 teams was key to them getting an even revenue share under the old SANZAR distribution.

*The dynamic does get a bit more complicated than just money, but for the most part it can still be traced back to market forces e.g. if you're only signing Australian players than an average Australian player has greatly increased bargaining power as there aren't too many options for a team, where as if the whole international player market is open to you you can go with an up and coming South African out of the Currie Cup, a fringe Japanese international looking to take his game to the next level or an experienced English pro looking to get a retirement year or 2 by the beach.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

For the most part money*. Australia has the top flight talent for 5 teams but not the money required to fill them with Australians. As a result a portion of that top flight talent leaves overseas for bigger deals and is replaced by international talent (or lesser Australian players). This is part of why cutting teams doesn't make much difference long term - less teams means less content to sell and less money to share between the teams that remain. Australia having 5 teams was key to them getting an even revenue share under the old SANZAR distribution.

*The dynamic does get a bit more complicated than just money, but for the most part it can still be traced back to market forces e.g. if you're only signing Australian players than an average Australian player has greatly increased bargaining power as there aren't too many options for a team, where as if the whole international player market is open to you you can go with an up and coming South African out of the Currie Cup, a fringe Japanese international looking to take his game to the next level or an experienced English pro looking to get a retirement year or 2 by the beach.

Is there currently a restriction on the number of foreign players a Super Rugby squad can have?

 

[LeCheese]

Is there currently a restriction on the number of foreign players a Super Rugby squad can have?

Yes - I believe 3? But it seems a bit flexible depending on the team in question

 

[Beer on the hill]

Head Coach: Eddie Jones
Assistant Coach: Stephen Hoiles
Assistant Coach: Laurie Fisher
Assistant Coach: Peter Hewitt
Wallabies Wellness Co-Ordinator: Travis To'omua
High Performance Director: Michael Cheika
Pathways and Coaching Co-ordinate: Ewen McKenzie
Skills Coach: David Knox
National Skills Coach: Berrick Barnes
Consultant: Scott Wisemantel
General Manager: David Nucifora
CEO: Phil Waugh
National/State Liason Officer: Chris Whittaker

I present my planned RA structure from 2024 onwards. Respectful feedback welcome.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

Head Coach: Eddie Jones
Assistant Coach: Stephen Hoiles
Assistant Coach: Laurie Fisher
Assistant Coach: Peter Hewitt
Wallabies Wellness Co-Ordinator: Travis To'omua
High Performance Director: Michael Cheika
Pathways and Coaching Co-ordinate: Ewen McKenzie
Skills Coach: David Knox
National Skills Coach: Berrick Barnes
Consultant: Scott Wisemantel
General Manager: David Nucifora
CEO: Phil Waugh
National/State Liason Officer: Chris Whittaker

I present my planned Rugby Australia structure from 2024 onwards. Respectful feedback welcome.

You've hit your Green Slime quota with no less than six representatives.

 

[Beer on the hill]

You've hit your Green Slime quota with no less than six representatives.

I think it is the way forward.
Who would you leave out? More importantly, who would you include?
Best,
Beer

 

[Slim 293]

Look, aside from it being a fanciful group of people that has no chance of existing in the real world... the representation is a tad, blue.

 

[Beer on the hill]

Look, aside from it being a fanciful group of people that has no chance of existing in the real world... the representation is a tad, blue.

This is what is wrong with Australian Rugby. I’m on here giving great suggestions and everyone is so negative.
Who would you suggest including?
Best,
Beer