Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Hamish proving an astute chess player isn’t he. Like this guys gib
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
Hamish proving an astute chess player isn’t he. Like this guys gib
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
RA but with backers, most notably the federal government. The govt has granted $1m to RA for the preliminary process, I assume he’d be paid from that.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Now that the media hysteria regarding the signing of a talented young player, I think it's fair to say that many rugby people are operating under some outdated stereotypes.
The first being that because of it's greater international presence, that rugby offers more opportunity that league. Superficially this is correct and it was certainly correct in the amateur era. However, it's now a very outdated and naive view because young talented players from both codes are able to secure league or union contracts with British, French, Italian and Japanese rugby clubs and Super Rugby franchises in Australia and NZ and move back seamlessly to the other code. Sam Burgess, Israel Folau, SBW, Ben Teo and many others, including a significant number of Fijians and Polynesians as well as anglo-Australians who move in and out of the NRL to pro rugby and back again.
The other stereotype seems to be that GPS, CAS and other independent private schools are all full of rugby players who want to become lawyers, accountants, doctors etc, while the state and catholic schools are full of leaguies who will go on to become tradies, garbos, wharfies and labourers. Again this thinking is outdated. As league players have become more highly paid, many have the same educational aspirations for their kids as everyone else, so many put their kids into GPS or other private schools but the kid's first preference is league they just happen to play rugby at school because it's the code on offer. But again all or most of these kids move in and out of league and union during their young years.
In the undignified frenzy over one kid, nobody in rugby seems to have even noticed this
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/yo...-teen-stars-to-nrl-deals-20200804-p55iji.html
This brings us to the uncomfortable truth that the league grassroots youth and junior player development system is light years ahead of rugby where there is a prevailing view that the schools can handle most of it.
Junior representative rugby in NSW is pretty much the same as when I played juniors in the 1970s, kids played for their local club (which are now known by the quaint name of 'village clubs'), there's a district rep team picked which plays in a carnival over the long weekend in June. In fact if anything this set-up has regressed since then because with the advent of Sunday local juniors, there is far less of an opportunity for the district rep teams to play trials in the leadup to the tournament. Participation in this representative process is limited only to boys who play for a village club. Suggestions for change are ignored, one of the reasons being that it's in the interest of certain parents to keep to pool of kids small so that their own boy can get in. This is another problem - most if not all of the selectors and coaches are parents with boys trying out.
In the 1970s, junior league broadly speaking followed a similar style of process. However some time ago league changed the way they did things. Their junior rep programs involve open trials from about 12s onwards - so any kid in Sydney (or NSW for that matter), whether they play junior league or not can nominate and attend. Even if kids do play junior league, they aren't bound to trial for their own district. So what happens is that there is a much larger and wider pool of kids trying out. They might start off with 150 kids and there's a process of fitness and age appropriate strength training and testing as well as skills training and testing. At various points the squad is reduced until they get to the number they want. A percentage of the kids that they attract come from a union bakckground, but it they are good enough they are then part of the league junior development system. Additionally the league junior rep comps have a 2 year window which further concentrates the talent. Also no parents are allowed as selectors or coaches.
So even kids who come to GPS, CAS, ISA etc schools are already in the junior RL development system before the schools get to them.
The next uncomfortable truth is that league provides many more opportunities for kids leaving school than rugby does. 3 NRL clubs in Qld, 1 in ACT, 1 in Melbourne and 10 in NSW. It broadly reflects where the kids come from, so that even if they don't get a start with their local club they might with a club nearby.
5 pro-rugby teams just isn't enough to give enough young talent a reasonable chance of getting a start. Even if our systems were world's best practice, it's impossible to identify and give opportunities to all the kids leaving school that we want to. Add to that that NSW and Qld produce between 80-90% of the players, but have 40% of the professional rugby teams located in those states.
5 x 5 TT under a season long model is a road to nowhere for Australian rugby. It may provide a short term fix, but its funding will be reduced and it is incapable of addressing the core systemic problems which hold rugby back in Australia.
It would be far better to have a 10 team domestic pro or semi-pro competition based on established clubs or groups of established clubs (not the NRC/ARC models of frankenstein forced partnerships or soulless franchises based on nothing), at the conclusion of which there is a tournament involving NSW, Qld and Combined States who play in a round robin. The top team (or the top two of the three) compete in a Champions League against the top 2 or 3 of SRA and South Africa.
The first being that because of it's greater international presence, that rugby offers more opportunity that league. Superficially this is correct and it was certainly correct in the amateur era. However, it's now a very outdated and naive view because young talented players from both codes are able to secure league or union contracts with British, French, Italian and Japanese rugby clubs and Super Rugby franchises in Australia and NZ and move back seamlessly to the other code. Sam Burgess, Israel Folau, SBW, Ben Teo and many others, including a significant number of Fijians and Polynesians as well as anglo-Australians who move in and out of the NRL to pro rugby and back again.
The other stereotype seems to be that GPS, CAS and other independent private schools are all full of rugby players who want to become lawyers, accountants, doctors etc, while the state and catholic schools are full of leaguies who will go on to become tradies, garbos, wharfies and labourers. Again this thinking is outdated. As league players have become more highly paid, many have the same educational aspirations for their kids as everyone else, so many put their kids into GPS or other private schools but the kid's first preference is league they just happen to play rugby at school because it's the code on offer. But again all or most of these kids move in and out of league and union during their young years.
In the undignified frenzy over one kid, nobody in rugby seems to have even noticed this
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/yo...-teen-stars-to-nrl-deals-20200804-p55iji.html
This brings us to the uncomfortable truth that the league grassroots youth and junior player development system is light years ahead of rugby where there is a prevailing view that the schools can handle most of it.
Junior representative rugby in NSW is pretty much the same as when I played juniors in the 1970s, kids played for their local club (which are now known by the quaint name of 'village clubs'), there's a district rep team picked which plays in a carnival over the long weekend in June. In fact if anything this set-up has regressed since then because with the advent of Sunday local juniors, there is far less of an opportunity for the district rep teams to play trials in the leadup to the tournament. Participation in this representative process is limited only to boys who play for a village club. Suggestions for change are ignored, one of the reasons being that it's in the interest of certain parents to keep to pool of kids small so that their own boy can get in. This is another problem - most if not all of the selectors and coaches are parents with boys trying out.
In the 1970s, junior league broadly speaking followed a similar style of process. However some time ago league changed the way they did things. Their junior rep programs involve open trials from about 12s onwards - so any kid in Sydney (or NSW for that matter), whether they play junior league or not can nominate and attend. Even if kids do play junior league, they aren't bound to trial for their own district. So what happens is that there is a much larger and wider pool of kids trying out. They might start off with 150 kids and there's a process of fitness and age appropriate strength training and testing as well as skills training and testing. At various points the squad is reduced until they get to the number they want. A percentage of the kids that they attract come from a union bakckground, but it they are good enough they are then part of the league junior development system. Additionally the league junior rep comps have a 2 year window which further concentrates the talent. Also no parents are allowed as selectors or coaches.
So even kids who come to GPS, CAS, ISA etc schools are already in the junior RL development system before the schools get to them.
The next uncomfortable truth is that league provides many more opportunities for kids leaving school than rugby does. 3 NRL clubs in Qld, 1 in ACT, 1 in Melbourne and 10 in NSW. It broadly reflects where the kids come from, so that even if they don't get a start with their local club they might with a club nearby.
5 pro-rugby teams just isn't enough to give enough young talent a reasonable chance of getting a start. Even if our systems were world's best practice, it's impossible to identify and give opportunities to all the kids leaving school that we want to. Add to that that NSW and Qld produce between 80-90% of the players, but have 40% of the professional rugby teams located in those states.
5 x 5 TT under a season long model is a road to nowhere for Australian rugby. It may provide a short term fix, but its funding will be reduced and it is incapable of addressing the core systemic problems which hold rugby back in Australia.
It would be far better to have a 10 team domestic pro or semi-pro competition based on established clubs or groups of established clubs (not the NRC/ARC models of frankenstein forced partnerships or soulless franchises based on nothing), at the conclusion of which there is a tournament involving NSW, Qld and Combined States who play in a round robin. The top team (or the top two of the three) compete in a Champions League against the top 2 or 3 of SRA and South Africa.
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
I read that article during the week. I think you you’ll find those 2 players were already in the NRL system. I’m not sure if they are lost to rugby or not, maybe RA doesn’t value them as highly as the NRL.
The delopment pathways for juniors aren’t quite as simplistic as you make out.
The delopment pathways for juniors aren’t quite as simplistic as you make out.
sendit
Bob Loudon (25)
RL pathway are better, more streamline and more unified than anything we can currently offer
Their rep pathways provide more opportunities, their training is more thorough and professional, their rep season is actually a season and club/school/rep calendars work in unison not competing for their kids
Growing up I always wanted to trial for Harold Matthews and SG Ball with my league mates despite never actually playing league, hell despite playing every single year in junior rep union I couldn’t even tell you what the union rep competition is called because there’s so little emphasis put on it.
You’d play 2-3 trials in the lead up to the carnival, you’d play, know that selectors would probably watch 1 maybe 2 games if you’re lucky, selectors were either all be north shore parents and select an overwhelming majority of their own or the team would be selected fairly then the North Shore coach would come in, override the selectors and again choose all of their own. Ensuring any kid on the fence between league and union would have the decision made for them
Their rep pathways provide more opportunities, their training is more thorough and professional, their rep season is actually a season and club/school/rep calendars work in unison not competing for their kids
Growing up I always wanted to trial for Harold Matthews and SG Ball with my league mates despite never actually playing league, hell despite playing every single year in junior rep union I couldn’t even tell you what the union rep competition is called because there’s so little emphasis put on it.
You’d play 2-3 trials in the lead up to the carnival, you’d play, know that selectors would probably watch 1 maybe 2 games if you’re lucky, selectors were either all be north shore parents and select an overwhelming majority of their own or the team would be selected fairly then the North Shore coach would come in, override the selectors and again choose all of their own. Ensuring any kid on the fence between league and union would have the decision made for them
Jimmy_Crouch
Peter Johnson (47)
Another wonderfully long post shitting on everything without giving details on how to fix it. (10team comp, what teams funded by whom etc) We get it QH you don't like anything that has been done for the past 30 years.
mst
Peter Johnson (47)
I suspect those mates (backers) that were mentioned in the 'letter" to RA thats stated if they could play by their rules they were willing to pay for some of it otherwise RA would not be able to afford it. I think the appointment is more about committing those who are willing to put up some dollars. The astute part of the appointment is that Kearns is just a token gesture that locks in that group who now have to walk the talk; and Kearns also has to and will need to keep the money coming. If the funding for the bid dries up, all eyes will be on Kearns. That $1mil is actually a very small amount.
Pretty much any sport that can host something of economic benefit will get funding. The $1mil is old money:
The $1 million for 2019-20 in funding for Rugby Australia’s bid was declared in the Government’s Pre-Election Economic and Fiscal Outlook, and was listed as a 'decision taken but not yet announced’ in the 2019-20 Budget.
“Rugby Australia is most grateful and extremely pleased to receive this support from the Australian Government for our foundation planning phase,” Rugby Australia boss Raelene Castle said.
"As a country, we are fortunate to have strong support from governments that recognise the importance of hosting major events and what they can deliver, which was recognised in the Sports 2030 Plan and Sports Diplomacy 2030 Plan.
“We were fortunate to receive strong support last year from the Australian Government for our Women’s Rugby World Cup Bid and we welcome the support provided today which will enable us to undertake important scoping work this year, in partnership with Australian Government agencies, around the viability and strategy for a bid to host the 2027 Rugby World Cup.
rugboy
Jim Clark (26)
QH, Im not sure how a 10 team domestic semi professional model helps entice kids to play union over league. Yes more options but less money to contract them and put them through and develop them. Seems a step backwards. We have hung onto the majority of juniors successfully over the last few years through the fighting fund. We will lose some. As KOB pointed out Sua'ali'i, Moale, Kalo Kalo are all league kids who attend Rugby Schools. That will always be a tough fight. The same way the likes of Harrison, Harris and Bell were rugby kids chased by league but committed to stay. It will always be difficult to sway the rusted on kid. No semi professional competition will change that.
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
I wouldn’t dispute that the RL pathways are better, I was just saying that the rugby ones weren’t as simplistic as QH was making out, and there is actually a rep pathway. There are actually two pathways - one is the one you suggest which is to slug it out at rep carnivals and hope to get selected at each successive level, rinse and repeat for next year etc. The other is to get into the Academy and advance to the next level each year. As an example, there was a Mudgee kid playing for Central West U15s last year and was overlooked by the Country selectors. As anyone knows, even if you do get picked in the Country team it’s virtually impossible to then make the next level after the game v City, or at least not many do. However this kid caught the eye of the Waratahs Academy scouts and he bypassed the rep selection and went straight into that program.
By the way, the dynamic of the coach’s kid being the first name on the rep team sheet isn’t unique to rugby, in fact it’s probably even more prevalent in league.
RugbyFuture
Lord Logo
I mean, if you think the threat is from the NRL of taking young rugby talent, can't wait till you find out about the MILLIONS pouring into GPS, CAS and ISA afl programs.
sendit
Bob Loudon (25)
Not that much. I met a guy some months ago who was from a rugby background, who is employed by the AFL to create relationships and to get AFL money and programmes specifically into "rugby" schools in NSW. It is a reasonably high priority for them. And he said resources were "not an issue". And he was getting traction.
The NRL issue is somewhat different as they are happy to foster relationships with schools and get talented kids into them by means of subsidising, or quite often just paying full fees. Obviously with conditions of what footy the kids will play and when.
sendit
Bob Loudon (25)
very interesting, i was offered that job about 5-6 years ago. While the AFL are well know for throwing as much money as needed at a project, i was more questioning the literal act of spending millions, that much just isn't required for what theyre trying to achieve. I was probably being a bit too pedantic with my reply.........
I am skeptical about the rise of AFL in GPS schools. Sure it will be played, and some may end up taking it quite seriously.
But rugby is the dominant sport and will be for the foreseeable future. The availibility of oval grounds in winter is a real limitation on the growth of AFL, as is the nature of the game itself - an endurance sport that is hardly a game for all shapes and sizes like rugby.
But rugby is the dominant sport and will be for the foreseeable future. The availibility of oval grounds in winter is a real limitation on the growth of AFL, as is the nature of the game itself - an endurance sport that is hardly a game for all shapes and sizes like rugby.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
At a low level, just about any sport can fit that bill.
Rugby likes to think it's a sport for everyone, but in reality that's a stretch.
RA would do well to emulate some of AFL's measures, albeit on a smaller scale.
Rob42
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
You're underselling rugby. It's really the only team sport where a bloke who's tubby, not great aerobically, perhaps not great on the ball skills, can still go a long way. And that's a great thing, especially at the junior level. Sure, it doesn't have much to offer the youngster who doesn't want to get into the heavy physical contact, but beyond that, it really is a sport for all shapes and sizes, way more than the other codes.
It would be interesting to know whether there are any GPS school kids in the Swans Academy or whether any GPS graduates have played NEAFL for the Swans.
PhilClinton
Mark Loane (55)
In my limited experience with suburban AFL - there were more blokes running around in lower grades whom I would consider 'husky' than I actually notice on a rugby field. I guess because in rugby the hard men (that's what us chubbers prefer to be called) get distributed more evenly among teams to play in the front row. Whereas in AFL everyone is pretty much doing the same thing in each position.
Or maybe its just because the shorts were shorter and the singlets were tighter.