Australian Rugby / RA

[Wilson]

What?

I think Dan is saying he hopes that the Rebels/RA and those involved don't attempt to engage in any sort of phoenix activity as a way to escape the debt. As far as I'm aware that sort of behaviour is illegal and particularly unlikely to go unnoticed with such a public situation.

 

[Adam84]

I think Dan is saying he hopes that the Rebels/RA and those involved don't attempt to engage in any sort of phoenix activity as a way to escape the debt. As far as I'm aware that sort of behaviour is illegal and particularly unlikely to go unnoticed with such a public situation.

yeah I understand what he was alluding to, I just don’t know where he got that idea from that prompted the response it did.

Attempting to phoenix a sporting team is a bit different to a construction company. For starters all players & coaches contracts as well as sponsorship deals would be null and void. It’s just not possible to do without starting from scratch.

anyway, they’re not even in administration yet and let’s hope it stays that way

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

There’s no way the current situation of the A-League can be spun as a positive. They have regressed in the last decade. It’s laughable they are considering expanding when the most recent additions, MacArthur and Western United, have been nothing short of failures.

 

[Dan54]

yeah I understand what he was alluding to, I just don’t know where he got that idea from that prompted the response it did.

Attempting to phoenix a sporting team is a bit different to a construction company. For starters all players & coaches contracts as well as sponsorship deals would be null and void. It’s just not possible to do without starting from scratch.

anyway, they’re not even in administration yet and let’s hope it stays that way

Just what I was reading on a forum, not sure if it was here or another one where the comment was made about RA taking the license etc, and run it as seperate company. All I alluded to if anyone whether it construction or sports fold owing money, whoever is owed the money is basically getting robbed of their money, whether it subbies, suppliers or even owners of stadiums etc. I thought about it when those NH clubs went bankrupt, it involves more than just the club and players.
And as you say they not in administration yet, and let's hope they don't go into it and all moneys are paid and they survive.

 

[Adam84]

Can’t help but respect what the NRL is doing, it’d be great if rugby could have done the same when the money was actually flowing.

 

[Crashy]

I notice that today's Perth sevens is a sell out. 21k. I assume all the hospitality has as well. As broke as it is, does RA make any money from hosting the event? ( well World Rugby hosts it I assume).
Any what ways does the Force benefit- have they and the clubs been present pan-handing for memberships and signing up for the season ahead in club rugby? Sounds like there should be some good momentum from this if they convert.

 

[Adam84]

Depends on the profit sharing agreement, it might haven changed under the tournament revamp. I’d expect the host nation takes the ticket sales, and world rugby take the rest from broadcasters and sponsors. There’s probably a fee paid to WR (World Rugby) as well by the host. Also depends how much WA Govt paid for hosting rights.

21k is a good crowd and great to see it sold out, Sydney last year drew about 25k each on Sat & Sun, so about similar to that albeit in a smaller stadium this year.

As for the Force, they’d be silly not to have a merchandise/membership stand there selling kit if anllowed, although I never saw the Waratahs doing that in Sydney.

 

[Wilson]

Can’t help but respect what the NRL is doing, it’d be great if rugby could have done the same when the money was actually flowing.
View attachment 18147

Yeah, it's a very savvy move they've made, investing specifically in hotel real estate that is closely tied with the game. Given the amount of travel in our game, both international and interstate, it would've been a great investment off the back of the 03 world cup.

The lack of actual assets has been one of the things holding RA back compared to the Northern unions who own their key stadium. Revenue from Twickenham and Millenium is what has made and kept those unions rich (even with the shitshow that is the WRU).

 

[hoggy]

The Mercure Hotel they've brought is probably the closest accommodation to Sunshine Coast stadium, about 3 k's away, the stadium is relatively new (good stadium) cap about 12,000/15,000 has had upgrades and further ones due to accommodate 32 Olympics, also several NRL games throughout the year and more planned, home of the Falcons who have a strategic partnership with the Storm, also part of the Dolphins territory, So your can see the strategy involved. its called securing your heartlands.

 

[LevitatingSocks]

Can’t help but respect what the NRL is doing, it’d be great if rugby could have done the same when the money was actually flowing.
View attachment 18147

Disneyland for NRL fans? Hope they budget for patching holes in the walls.

 

[Wallaby Ways]

RA are a long way off owning any type of property portfolio but they should be aiming for it.

 

[Wallaby Ways]

The cricket has shown that in professional sport, the margins are thin. I look forward to a Wallaby resurgence in 2024 and again in 2025.

 

[Crashy]

an excellent example of making us feel better. Though sadly I think most of the Windies team will be offered a lot of cash ( and rightly so) to play that fucking turd of a cricket game called T20 in India. Fluffybunnies.

 

[Crashy]

thats not pointed at the Windies players mind you. Its the cash thats killing test cricket.

 

[half]

So you’re saying APL and their PE agreement was a positive one that rugby should seek to replicate? Despite burning through almost $140million in reserves in 3 years, a broadcast agreement that’s come in much lower the budgeted because they’re failing to hit KPIs, shuttering a $40million digital platform that was suppose to underpin growth, broadcast production costs chewing up 40% of broadcast revenue and the league giving up 33% of all future earnings? Hmmmmm

definitely lessons learned from this, not in the way you think though.

Mate, On my knees I beg forgiveness for saying Football.

If you care to read what I posted I said the A-League is in trouble and has made some series management errors.

I then said, those decisions had nothing to do with the system, structure they have in place.

Adam, I understand, its hard to understand why people keep pumping money into the A-l, I can't explain why except they do. Just maybe its their system / structure, has something to do with it.

The same will happen to the Rebels, if rugby chooses the right systems.

However, if I am correct the A-L started in 2005, at the time the then Soccer Australia & NSL were broke and Football / Soccer did not exist in a professional sense in Australia.

Equally in 2005, Rugby had if measured by game the best media deal in Australia, and from memory average crowds of 25K +, the national teams were doing very nicely thank you very much, we had lots of money in the bank, and of course Concord Oval, among other assets like TGM.

Today, Football has 13 soon 14 teams, play regularly in Asia, the last 20 years has seen their player numbers exploded, their national teams are highly respected, they are starting a second division, they have a full womens competition. All this in spite of mega management errors.

Essentially since the A-L started Football has boomed, maybe not the A-L but the rest has.

Today, Rugby, has five teams, national teams doing poorly, grass roots player numbers are down since 2005, but more alarming is the quality of players.

Make of that what you will, but to continually say "Everything they do and everything they say" is crap, and we should not copy, totally ignores the mega to the power of massive strides made and most of the back of the failed A-L.

Compare the growth of both codes over the past what 18 or so years, and before you itemise every mistake the A-L has made I already acknowledge and have always acknowledged the mistakes. Moreover if I acknowledge all the mistakes, can you at least acknowledge many fools keep pumping money into the A-L, and for the love of the holy mother Mary I can't explain why they do.

AnyWho I grow tied of the argument, they are the same as those who for years said Super Rugby was here forever and no change was needed.

Time to get off social media, actually this site is about my only social media, and listen to wisdom of Dobie Gray, and Drift Away, for a while at least.

 

[Adam84]

Mate, On my knees I beg forgiveness for saying Football.

If you care to read what I posted I said the A-League is in trouble and has made some series management errors.

I then said, those decisions had nothing to do with the system, structure they have in place.

Adam, I understand, its hard to understand why people keep pumping money into the A-l, I can't explain why except they do. Just maybe its their system / structure, has something to do with it.

The same will happen to the Rebels, if rugby chooses the right systems.

However, if I am correct the A-L started in 2005, at the time the then Soccer Australia & NSL were broke and Football / Soccer did not exist in a professional sense in Australia.

Equally in 2005, Rugby had if measured by game the best media deal in Australia, and from memory average crowds of 25K +, the national teams were doing very nicely thank you very much, we had lots of money in the bank, and of course Concord Oval, among other assets like TGM.

Today, Football has 13 soon 14 teams, play regularly in Asia, the last 20 years has seen their player numbers exploded, their national teams are highly respected, they are starting a second division, they have a full womens competition. All this in spite of mega management errors.

Essentially since the A-L started Football has boomed, maybe not the A-L but the rest has.

Today, Rugby, has five teams, national teams doing poorly, grass roots player numbers are down since 2005, but more alarming is the quality of players.

Make of that what you will, but to continually say "Everything they do and everything they say" is crap, and we should not copy, totally ignores the mega to the power of massive strides made and most of the back of the failed A-L.

Compare the growth of both codes over the past what 18 or so years, and before you itemise every mistake the A-L has made I already acknowledge and have always acknowledged the mistakes. Moreover if I acknowledge all the mistakes, can you at least acknowledge many fools keep pumping money into the A-L, and for the love of the holy mother Mary I can't explain why they do.

Half it was you who originally posed the suggestion that the APL/A-League governance model and structure as one that Rugby should watch and seek to even copy when it was first announced, so i just assumed given your interest in the model previously you would be interested in re-visiting the topic to discuss how rugby can avoid making the same mistakes. I believe you even claimed it was personal bias against football when others were skeptical about the model and whether it would drive growth.

Personally, i think the APL/A-League serves as a warning for rugby, you said the A-League owners were a very impressive business group and they were now running the game separated from FFA interests, yet even with the right talent in place at the APL it's been a pretty shit 3 years. They're now $140million and 33% revenue worse off going forward.

If rugby is going to go the PE route, then the A-League serves as a warning of what not to do. That's not to say they cant rebuild, but there's no denying they've wasted almost $100million and rugby can't afford to do the same.

Also one thing which needs to be acknowledged and keeps getting overlooked is that the health of soccer at grassroots level is detached from the A-League, if anything the A-League and the often negative publicity about crowd behavior has a negative correlation. Football doesn't need a domestic tournament for grassroots to succeed, it has critical mass globally that allows this. So we shouldn't' keep referring to the health of grassroots football as a KPI or Metric to say that the A-League is successful.

 

[wamberal99]

Also one thing which needs to be acknowledged and keeps getting overlooked is that the health of soccer at grassroots level is detached from the A-League, if anything the A-League and the often negative publicity about crowd behavior has a negative correlation. Football doesn't need a domestic tournament for grassroots to succeed, it has critical mass globally that allows this. So we shouldn't' keep referring to the health of grassroots football as a KPI or Metric to say that the A-League is successful.

It is easy and safe to kick a round ball around, comparatively speaking. Mothers love their kids to play soccer.

 

[hoggy]

I agree with Half to a certain extent, the main point is again the structure of each code.
Super Rugby is simply not fit for purpose for Australian rugby as such the game is declining in popularity due to it, and we have been over those reasons a thousand times.

The A league operators may not be the best example, and the league itself is struggling, but it is clear to see that it will end up finding its appropriate place in the market. The buildings blocks are in place for it to grow and those debts are proportionately private so will not drag the league down with it, clubs will come and go until ultimately the right balance and financial footing will eventuate.

Just an example, I am a Pheonix supporter originally coming from WGTN, up until a couple years ago nearly every week the existence of this club was questioned, I honestly thought they would fold, just not enough support or money for a professional football team in NZ.
Yet next year Auckland will become the 2nd professional football team in NZ.

The difference is rugby is taking on all this debt by itself attached to a structure that can't deliver it the growth to fund those debts.

 

[half]

Half it was you who originally posed the suggestion that the APL/A-League governance model and structure as one that Rugby should watch and seek to even copy when it was first announced, so i just assumed given your interest in the model previously you would be interested in re-visiting the topic to discuss how rugby can avoid making the same mistakes. I believe you even claimed it was personal bias against football when others were skeptical about the model and whether it would drive growth.

Adam, you are driving me crazy in your connecting an apple and an orange, and calling it a watermelon.

The APL structure is the way rugby should go, even more now than before.

Some of the decisions made the APL management have been inept, and should stand as a warning, for rugby not to follow.

As simple as I can, the structure and management decisions within that structure are separate things.

IF as you have pointed out the digital network failure had not occurred and APL has used the 30 million dollars more wisely, things would be different.

You are making all sorts of failure claims, this has failed, that has failed, and over there has failed.

The following if fact, APL with the sale of two clubs 50 million, selling Perth & Newcastle between 25 and 35 million, existing club owners putting in [guess] 3 million each, that another 36 million. Assume 85 million + 36 million. that like over 120 million. What could rugby do with 120 million.

Whether it will drive growth, if you count player numbers, and the A & W leagues providing players for national sides then growth has been huge.

So the lesson is simple, don't F up the running of the competition and put fans offside with your running of the competition.

Please feel free to itemise as I said every single management decision made that was wrong, but my challenge to you is simple, use 2005 as your starting point, Football no professional competition, national body could not afford to pay the airfares to bring the Socceroo's to Australia, previous NSL crowds averaging around at best 3K per match. Rugby over 25K average crowd, good junior numbers, unchallenged in private schools with some state schools having strong teams best media deal in Australia, huge assets, Concord Oval, TGM etc.

If you cannot see the enormous growth in Football over the last say 18 to 20 years, and the fall off in Rugby then no answer or explanation will ever do.

As an aside I used to but gave up talking about the MLS which the A-L is partly modelled on. Its booming as is MLR, also modelled on the US franchise model.

NSW, QLD & ACT unions are near broke, RA is in debt, Rebels in Administration, Adam in my very humble opinion without a new structure or system allowing new money in RA will find in very difficult to hold were they are and provide capital for growth. Maybe you have the solution and as some point out the BL tour and the WC will solve all and we will all be in the land of honey soon.

Anyway back to Dobie Gray, have a listen if you have never heard it.

 

[Adam84]

Adam, you are driving me crazy in your connecting an apple and an orange, and calling it a watermelon.

The APL structure is the way rugby should go, even more now than before.

Some of the decisions made the APL management have been inept, and should stand as a warning, for rugby not to follow.

As simple as I can, the structure and management decisions within that structure are separate things.

IF as you have pointed out the digital network failure had not occurred and APL has used the 30 million dollars more wisely, things would be different.

You are making all sorts of failure claims, this has failed, that has failed, and over there has failed.

The following if fact, APL with the sale of two clubs 50 million, selling Perth & Newcastle between 25 and 35 million, existing club owners putting in [guess] 3 million each, that another 36 million. Assume 85 million + 36 million. that like over 120 million. What could rugby do with 120 million.

Whether it will drive growth, if you count player numbers, and the A & W leagues providing players for national sides then growth has been huge.

So the lesson is simple, don't F up the running of the competition and put fans offside with your running of the competition.

Please feel free to itemise as I said every single management decision made that was wrong, but my challenge to you is simple, use 2005 as your starting point, Football no professional competition, national body could not afford to pay the airfares to bring the Socceroo's to Australia, previous NSL crowds averaging around at best 3K per match. Rugby over 25K average crowd, good junior numbers, unchallenged in private schools with some state schools having strong teams best media deal in Australia, huge assets, Concord Oval, TGM etc.

If you cannot see the enormous growth in Football over the last say 18 to 20 years, and the fall off in Rugby then no answer or explanation will ever do.

As an aside I used to but gave up talking about the MLS which the A-L is partly modelled on. Its booming as is MLR, also modelled on the US franchise model.

NSW, QLD & ACT unions are near broke, RA is in debt, Rebels in Administration, Adam in my very humble opinion without a new structure or system allowing new money in RA will find in very difficult to hold were they are and provide capital for growth. Maybe you have the solution and as some point out the BL tour and the WC will solve all and we will all be in the land of honey soon.

Anyway back to Dobie Gray, have a listen if you have never heard it.

Half, you were the one who introduced the suggestion that the APL/A-league model as something rugby should replicate, so lets discuss it even if it didn't materialise as you though or hoped. In either case, there's lessons to be learned given how much wasted money there was, even if not positive ones.

Again, relying on new investors to provide cash to enable distributions and dividends to existing shareholders is akin to a ponzi scheme and not sustainable. APL have been struggling to find buyers for those clubs you've mentioned, Perth and Newcastle don't have buyers, certainly not anyone willing to spend $25-$35 million, the APL is now stepping in directly to reduce the wage bills of Perth by forcing trades/sales of players. Like rugby they've also reduced distributions to the clubs. This $120 million figure you have suggested is nothing more then fanciful. Even if it were $120million, their PE partners are entitled to 33% and the sale of new teams was supposed to fund additional capital expenditure, not cover past operating losses.

2005 is irrelevant to critically analyzing the APL governance model and PE injection since 2019. Rugby can't afford to make the same mistakes A-League has made on PE and governance.