stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Agree and not sure that we can do that under Rennie.
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
What has he done exactly?
I think Coleman has a lot of promise, and his career is building very nicely…
But so far he has less senior coaching success than McKellar and Thorn.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
His work in Japan over the last few years is obviously a good starting point…
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
He achieved two big upset results (Ireland, Scotland pool matches) at a home World Cup after years of planning & targeting only those 2 matches... aside from that Japan has been consistently worse than they were under Jones, they've been regularly shipping 40+ against most other Tier 1 sides. Jamie Joseph was also very inconsistent with the Highlanders, they came 13th, 11th, 9th & 12th, without Tony Brown as assistant coach. In NZ, Robertson is definitely considered more highly than Joseph & Rennie.
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PhilClinton
Mark Loane (55)
Not trying to discredit that work - but I don't think the 'he's made Japan decent' argument holds much weight when you compare Japanese rugby program and Australian rugby.
They are very different beasts. The bar for Joseph in Japan is much lower than what is expected of the Wallabies, and he inherited a program that had already started its evolution into a decent setup due to Jones.
He definitely could thrive with the Wallabies, but people need to stop putting him well ahead of the other candidates because of his work with Japan.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Jones certainly kicked things off, but aside from the major upset that was beating the Boks, which is a major achievement, there’s not much else to speak of…
Japan beating both Ireland and Scotland at a RWC and topping their pool is an envious result, and they’ve also notched up some close losses in the past year to major tier 1 nations including NZ and France most recently.
Obviously the bar is lower because it’s Japan, but it’s not only impressive what Joseph has achieved with them, but the style of attacking play he’s instilled in both them but the Sunwolves in their short stint.
I don’t know about Joseph being above any other candidates, but he’s got a lot of good credentials.
Japan beating both Ireland and Scotland at a RWC and topping their pool is an envious result, and they’ve also notched up some close losses in the past year to major tier 1 nations including NZ and France most recently.
Obviously the bar is lower because it’s Japan, but it’s not only impressive what Joseph has achieved with them, but the style of attacking play he’s instilled in both them but the Sunwolves in their short stint.
I don’t know about Joseph being above any other candidates, but he’s got a lot of good credentials.
LeCheese
Greg Davis (50)
I'm not suggesting it is, nor should be - I'm saying that removing a popular leader from any team/organisation can have a negative influence, which is at odds with the impact of a new coach @stillmissit suggested
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
It's more the inconsistency of results than anything else. 2013 was rock bottom for the Highlanders, although he obviously learned from it and made big changes. During his Lion's tenure, Wellington lost 2 finals & a Semi-Final with an exceptionally strong roster.
With Japan, he's shown he can do well at a home World Cup with 9 months of preparation with the players in camp (note - that no other country had this advantage due to Japan's Top League season finishing in January 2019 that year), but he's had some pretty atrocious results outside them - getting annihilated by some T1 teams, almost losing to Portugal, etc. He really seems to target specific games rather than being consistent throughout.
As Gatland said, there's "only one" standout coach in NZ rugby & it's Razor. RA ought to throw the money at him.
Stuff
www.stuff.co.nz
PhilClinton
Mark Loane (55)
The Robertson v Joseph experience argument is quite slanted as well, but it is hard to compare apples with apples in these situations.
Joseph had already been coaching professional sides for 4 years before Robertson even retired from playing.
Joseph had already been coaching professional sides for 4 years before Robertson even retired from playing.
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
By this calculation, he'll be good to go when you are old and I am dead....
The same thing goes for players with the ability to lift and our inability to recognise it.
Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
There's no obvious replacement. I lean towards Joseph because he's had international experience, I'm sick of us being testing grounds for provincial coaches, let them cut their teeth elsewhere then they can come coach us.
But then again coaching Japan is a bit of a free ride, no one remembers your white washes because that's expected but we do remember your close losses or wins. Not sure if Japan has done any better than Aus has under Rennie.
But then again coaching Japan is a bit of a free ride, no one remembers your white washes because that's expected but we do remember your close losses or wins. Not sure if Japan has done any better than Aus has under Rennie.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
No, he’ll be good to go when he has the required experience/results required of any potential test coaching candidate…
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
World Cup winning coaches McQueen, Woodward, White, & Erasmus, didn't have prior international experience.
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
LeCheese: Understand the argument but I've never seen it in Australian rugby. Ewen was well liked but Cheika lifted them in his first year. Just looked over all the coaches back to 74 and I only remember Bob Templeton onwards, the only coach I don't remember lifting them was Greg Smith although he had a brain disease and died a few years later. He had a 63% win rate.
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Exactly 15- 20 years from now!
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Rodha: excellent research again.It's more the inconsistency of results than anything else. 2013 was rock bottom for the Highlanders, although he obviously learned from it and made big changes. During his Lion's tenure, Wellington lost 2 finals & a Semi-Final with an exceptionally strong roster.
With Japan, he's shown he can do well at a home World Cup with 9 months of preparation with the players in camp (note - that no other country had this advantage due to Japan's Top League season finishing in January 2019 that year), but he's had some pretty atrocious results outside them - getting annihilated by some T1 teams, almost losing to Portugal, etc. He really seems to target specific games rather than being consistent throughout.
As Gatland said, there's "only one" standout coach in NZ rugby & it's Razor. Rugby Australia ought to throw the money at him.
Stuff
So Gatland can be ignored as a reference for Robertson (sarc)? This post and your other one referring to WC-winning coaches, makes me wonder if being a national coach makes you too predictable and risk averse with both planning and player identification.
To be successful in a win-lose environment you need to be focused on the battles and ignore, or better, have no regard for the downside.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
And neither did (insert long list of disappointing coaches)…
what has he done? Genuinely curious. Gordon Shute Shield Premiership and LA Giltinis?
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
True but all of these are 1st tier teams.