Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
It was the Wallabies’ third Tri-Nations win…
They won back to back in 2000 and 2001.
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
It was the Wallabies’ third Tri-Nations win…
They won back to back in 2000 and 2001.
I'm unsure how his history as a player makes him the most qualified coach. If anything there's a pretty low correlation between success as a player and success as a coach.
McKenzie's coaching CV is also good but I'd argue the playing bit is largely irrelevant.
I fixed that second last line for you. Obviously there were issues elsewhere that contributed to his downfall but it was largely self-inflicted.
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
McKenzie implemented appropriate disciplinary measures & enforced team standards that Robbie had let go completely AWOLE...
McKenzie envisioned greater accountability & demanded respect for the jersey! That wasn't an unreasonable request was it? Was it??
McKenzie as a former Wallabies great himself wanted his players to understand the privilege of wearing the gold jumper again, as under Deans the team standards had plummeted to alarming depths.
Robbie was far from a perfect coach in a lot of ways. One of those being that in a significant way he enabled that culture to continue to fester and build after his tenure had concluded to the point of where they ended up later down the track due to repeated inaction against players for their transgressions.
Robbie was a real problem because he was a terrible people person & was ruled by his heart, which is not what you want in a coach. He was loathe to let other people and their ideas come to the fore. It was his way or the highway, which isn't an effective approach in the modern collaborative team environment. McCaw addressed this in his book. And let's face it, when taking into account the sheer state of disarray that Robbie left the team in McKenzie did a pretty darn good patch-up job, to be perfectly honest.
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stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Robbie was far from a perfect coach in a lot of ways. One of those being that in a significant way he enabled that culture to continue to fester and build after his tenure had concluded to the point of where they ended up later down the track due to repeated inaction against players for their transgressions.
Robbie was a real problem because he was a terrible people person & was ruled by his heart, which is not what you want in a coach. He was loathe to let other people and their ideas come to the fore. It was his way or the highway, which isn't an effective approach in the modern collaborative team environment. McCaw addressed this in his book. And let's face it, when taking into account the sheer state of disarray that Robbie left the team in McKenzie did a pretty darn good patch-up job, to be perfectly honest.
rodha, any facts to back this up? I knew guys and one of the players associated with Deans at the time and they spoke very highly about his knowledge and approach to the game, hardly his fault if he had some players who were D'heads and some who thought they were in charge. I met him once I never knew him.
Pocock's intro to his book speaks volumes about what he was like as a coach.
Robbie was a real problem because he was a terrible people person & was ruled by his heart, which is not what you want in a coach. He was loathe to let other people and their ideas come to the fore. It was his way or the highway, which isn't an effective approach in the modern collaborative team environment. McCaw addressed this in his book. And let's face it, when taking into account the sheer state of disarray that Robbie left the team in McKenzie did a pretty darn good patch-up job, to be perfectly honest.
rodha, any facts to back this up? I knew guys and one of the players associated with Deans at the time and they spoke very highly about his knowledge and approach to the game, hardly his fault if he had some players who were D'heads and some who thought they were in charge. I met him once I never knew him.
Pocock's intro to his book speaks volumes about what he was like as a coach.
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Apologies, I miss read it. the quote was 'first time won in 10 years'
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
The Wallabies during Cheika's tenure didn't have a whole lot to work with & Cheika's poor choice of assistants only exacerbated the decline in results, considering the very poor standard of Cheika's assistants during his tenure, almost all of them were inexperienced & had very little previous success as coaches as well, certainly didn't help his cause at all. And between 2014-2019 Australia's U20's were averaging 6-7th in the world & Australian Super Rugby teams reached a nadir, wins against South African teams became increasingly rare events & between 2016-2018 there was a 38 match losing streak against NZ sides I recall.
Additionally, if one takes into account Cheika was hamstrung by incredibly weak assistant coaches (i know, i know, he appointed them...) throughout his tenure (Grey, Berne, Raiwalui, Larkam, etc..) it's tempting to come to the conclusion that his results and 50% win-percentage was certainly par for course & definitely as good as Robbie's achievements considering the difficult circumstances & negating factors Cheika had to content with, amongst a tough, seriously unforgiving Australian rugby landscape between 2016-2019.
Any coach would've struggled. Cheika quite possibly overachieved - which was almost impossible for most to consider at the time.
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rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
It has come from retired All Blacks captain Tana Umaga in his autobiography Tana Umaga: Up Close.
Umaga, now coaching French club Toulon, criticises Deans for his role as assistant to coach John Mitchell in the All Blacks' failed 2003 World Cup campaign.
"Despite being a senior player, I got no feedback at all - just: 'No, you're not in this week'. That was pretty typical of the Mitchell/Deans man-management style, which wasn't what I was used to," wrote Umaga.
"Mitchell and Deans had a core group of players whom they valued and listened to, and it didn't include me."
Umaga felt their axing after the All Blacks lost the 2003 World Cup semifinal to Australia was justified.
"I didn't feel sorry for them, because I remembered the contemptuous way they cast aside experienced and valuable players," he said.
"I'm a big believer in karma and that was certainly a case of what goes around, comes around."
Aussies dangle millions in front of Deans
Speculation is rife that Robbie Deans could earn almost three times more than any Australian candidate if he fails to be named as All Blacks coach and is appointed to take over the Wallabies.
www.stuff.co.nz
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Very interesting and insightful from Tana Umaga, did you ever think that at that time Tana was most probably the best 13 in the world and Deans/Mitchell didn't think he needed much in terms of feedback? Not listening to him is a failure.It has come from retired All Blacks captain Tana Umaga in his autobiography Tana Umaga: Up Close.
Umaga, now coaching French club Toulon, criticises Deans for his role as assistant to coach John Mitchell in the All Blacks' failed 2003 World Cup campaign.
"Despite being a senior player, I got no feedback at all - just: 'No, you're not in this week'. That was pretty typical of the Mitchell/Deans man-management style, which wasn't what I was used to," wrote Umaga.
"Mitchell and Deans had a core group of players whom they valued and listened to, and it didn't include me."
Umaga felt their axing after the All Blacks lost the 2003 World Cup semifinal to Australia was justified.
"I didn't feel sorry for them, because I remembered the contemptuous way they cast aside experienced and valuable players," he said.
"I'm a big believer in karma and that was certainly a case of what goes around, comes around."
Aussies dangle millions in front of Deans
Speculation is rife that Robbie Deans could earn almost three times more than any Australian candidate if he fails to be named as All Blacks coach and is appointed to take over the Wallabies.
Makes me wonder how he survived the Crusaders without communication. I never heard this as a complaint from the guys I knew at that time. I heard the opposite that he was very concerned about the problematic young guys and spent too much time with them ie Beale.
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It's interesting that Deans is being lumped in as being equally to blame for the management and communication style as Mitchell despite Mitchell being the head coach and Deans the assistant.
Surely that is driven from the top.
Surely that is driven from the top.
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
Anyone who has read Christian Cullen & Tana Umaga's books will know neither of them were very enamoured with Deans as a coach.
Christian Cullen, in particular, mentioned that he felt it was really Deans that ran that campaign, as opposed to Mitchell, which very much confirmed the suspicions I had at the time...
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Anton Oliver hinted at same thing Rodha.
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
I found this chapter extract from Anton Oliver's book particularly insightful:
The test squad got down for training for the game against Ireland at Landsdowne Road. I expect training sessions to be well planned beforehand, and that clear instructions be given; also that drills are devised for a purpose and that optimal use is made of the time. This wasn't the case. Players were standing around wondering what they were meant to do. The drills were a shambles. This sort of thing had never happened under Wayne Smith, who's planning was meticulous.
After we'd showered and returned to the hotel, and were having dinner, I was sitting with the coaches, and I asked Deans about what we'd been supposed to be doing with one of the drills. Deans gave a belligerent response. He said, 'You know, you just have to react.' I replied and said that I felt that we needed better planning if we were to gain the players' confidence, involve them all and train effectively. 'To me,' I said, 'that's what training is all about.' He replied, 'Oh yeah, but it's all about reacting.' I was tempted to say, 'Well, why plan at all? Why don't we just go and throw the ball around and react to whatever happens?' But red alarm bells were flashing so I shut up.
He didn't welcome candid response or debate. Robbie would completely disagree with that view. Another case of misperception is how he would put it. He says that any coach who doesn't welcome input and take notice of senior players' opinions is stupid, but he plainly doesn't want my views in Dublin.
stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Rodha, I appreciate the work you have done to prove your point. It is not everyone that goes this far to establish what they state is as they say it is.
The saving grace for me is that I never heard any of this kind of talk at the time, apart from the rant by Cooper after he was dropped.
rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
From what I've heard is that Robbie is good when it comes to coaching & bringing through young players, as these guys don't have a voice yet, they won't question his methods, the problem is he tends to establish poor relationships with senior players because he's apparently inflexible when it comes to dealing with their needs. Mehrts, Giteau, etc.. as Umaga said "the contemptuous way he casts experience aside."
This extract is from 'Dan Carter - My Story' (set at the start of the 2004 Crusaders campaign).
There was a destabilizing flux at first-five, but I felt very secure at 12. The drama was unfortunate. Merhts was never anything less than a gentleman to me, for which I'll be forever grateful. But his relationship with Robbie really deteriorated as the season progressed. It was sad to watch, Mehrts being pushed out of a team which was his heart and soul. And Robbie unable to cope with a senior player's needs in the same way he could brilliantly nurture his young talent. It was really unfortunate. I think Robbie is probably the best coach of young talent you could hope to find. He sees talent early and nurtures it as well as anyone. But once that talent gets older, and develops their own voice, he can be a little inflexible, unable to adapt the relationship to reflect the player's evolved skill-set and perspective.
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rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
This article from Stephen Moore is probably the most insightful I've read on it.
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rodha
Dave Cowper (27)
Stephen Moore regrets Wallabies' culture slide under Robbie Deans but says it's turning around
Wallabies elder statesman Stephen Moore admits senior players should have stepped in when the Wallabies' culture began to slide under previous coach Robbie Deans.
Moore has revealed his regret at not pulling up wayward teammates like James O’Connor and Kurtley Beale, whose off-field incidents divided the dressing room and proved the final straw in Deans’s tenure.
In a forthright and candid interview with Australian reporters in London, where the Wallabies are preparing to play England this weekend, Moore said the Wallabies’ culture has improved dramatically under coach Ewen McKenzie and lauded the once-problematic Quade Cooper as a shining example of the turnaround.
One of the most respected voices in the team, Moore also said O’Connor must realise "the privilege of playing for Australia" if he hopes to return to the side.
The Wallabies’ culture sunk to concerning depths during the British & Irish Lions series when O’Connor and Beale were involved in late-night antics, missed buses to training and skipped meetings while Deans - under pressure to win - continued to select them.
Australia lost and Deans was sacked.
"I feel bad about how it went, that’s for sure, I’m not happy about the off-field incidents that happened," Moore said.
"Probably as senior players we could have done better, that’s for sure.
Moore says the senior players should have stepped in when the culture was deteriorating.
"That’s something I will probably look back and regret, that we didn’t act on some of that stuff when we probably should have.
"But I think there were probably times when Robbie put a lot of faith in young guys and maybe they let him down.
"Whenever we had an off-field incident it wasn’t just the new guys, it was other guys as well.
"It’s up to us as players to reward that faith, we are playing for our country and it’s very important."
Moore believes the culture of a team must be set by its coach.
"The coach obviously operates at the top of that tree, that would be where I see it being really important," he said.
"Then it’s up to the senior players to really drive it.
"It’s different in every team but the coach sets the tone, the senior players, it’s up to them to live it and drive it and make sure the guys coming into the group are aware of what is expected and aware of the sacrifices, the dedication, and the discipline required."
Asked how the culture is within the team now, Moore replied: "I think it’s really good, it has been excellent.
"Quade is a good example of that, he has been really impressive over the last six months in how he’s carried himself around the team, and how professional he’s been and how much time he has put into his preparation.
"I think you see that out on the field.
"The guys are really tight, we’ve got a really great bunch of guys. We’re really keen to now show that on the field by being consistent.
"Ewen certainly brought the best out of [Cooper], he’s obviously got a lot of respect for Ewen and what he’s done with him at the Reds.
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stillmissit
Peter Johnson (47)
Rodha, very interesting regarding the culture and points to having a local coach who appreciates the history and responsibility. I will say that for a coach who lost the support of the senior players his record is pretty good. Compare it to Cheika and Ewen who improved the culture but the results went down. A very good coach is a very rare thing and that's why McQueens time is valued so much., although it bred 'player power' which undermined the culture. Ho! Hum! it's human nature again.
Your post stated:
"Moore believes the culture of a team must be set by its coach.
"The coach obviously operates at the top of that tree, that would be where I see it being really important," he said.
"Then it’s up to the senior players to really drive it."
I believe that Stephen Moore is partly correct. The senior players should set the tone and culture and not allow youngsters to get out of control. That is a big part of what a good captain with strong senior players brings to a team. If we want to employ foreign coaches and learn new methods then the senior players must step in and set the culture and discipline. Deans in Christchurch (which was about 50 years behind Sydney) enjoyed a playing group that was so thankful to get a chance, it was unlikely that they would do much to stuff that up, particularly when an AB shirt was a reasonable opportunity.
Q. Do the current players respect the shirt, history and culture that the Wallabies have? Should the players get presentations and videos of our history?
Your post stated:
"Moore believes the culture of a team must be set by its coach.
"The coach obviously operates at the top of that tree, that would be where I see it being really important," he said.
"Then it’s up to the senior players to really drive it."
I believe that Stephen Moore is partly correct. The senior players should set the tone and culture and not allow youngsters to get out of control. That is a big part of what a good captain with strong senior players brings to a team. If we want to employ foreign coaches and learn new methods then the senior players must step in and set the culture and discipline. Deans in Christchurch (which was about 50 years behind Sydney) enjoyed a playing group that was so thankful to get a chance, it was unlikely that they would do much to stuff that up, particularly when an AB shirt was a reasonable opportunity.
Q. Do the current players respect the shirt, history and culture that the Wallabies have? Should the players get presentations and videos of our history?
