Australian Rugby / RA

[Train Without a Station]

My assumption is that they want to be treated specially because we aren't hearing the same murmurs out of QLD and ACT.

 

[kiap]

I don't think this is a battle they're going to win if they continue to shitpost (to use internet slang) about the ARU.

I prefer "Pap smear".

 

[barbarian]

From what I've heard and read though, when it comes to a relationship the clubs have come to the table and provided - changing seasons, supporting NRC - the ARU refuse to.

But the ARU have been right on those two points, no? The argument from the Clubs is essentially 'we could have fucked you over and stood in the way of a new competition that would improve the game substantially, but we didn't', and it's hardly a convincing point in their favour.

The Clubs need to argue that they can grow the game. Rather this argument is just a base level 'we scratched your back, now we're itchy as fuck and where are you?'. That argument goes great in a blog post on Rugby News, but how does it help growing the game, either at the top level or the bottom level?

What they should be arguing is this:

The professional organisation would realise that the local communities can do things that the pro organisation could never do, or realistically afford to do.

Which is what Papworth almost says, but it all gets lost in the furious name-calling.

The grassroots are well placed to grow the game at the Junior level. The words 'Shute Shield' shouldn't be anywhere near their argument. It needs to be about under 7s and under 8s, and how with extra funds they can advertise more, drop entry costs, buy better gear, sell cheaper snags etc.

2 - A lot of what I read in this thread sounds like "f*ck you Uni/Randwick/Eastwood" my club has never had as much as you, etc.

I get that - it's part of the passion of club rugby. But as Gnostic points out above, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

There is also a massive element of 'fuck you ARU' on the other side, too.

It's a shame because everyone wants the same thing here. And the ARU are on an unprecedented run of success at the moment. And the big clubs have an awesome history and we should be wanting them to grow too.
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[barbarian]

The assumption here is that the clubs haven't been trying to communicate through the usual channels over a period of time already, and that what we're seeing now isn't actually last straw explosion of frustration.

This is why writing off the arguments they make because of the exasperated tone isn't a logical thing to do

But what evidence do we have to make that judgement? We are assuming the clubs haven't tried to communicate because they haven't told us. We are taking the clubs argument on face value, not digging down and assuming there is a massive iceberg below the tip.

That doesn't mean there isn't one. There probably is, but again, it's on the clubs to communicate their points better. If they have repeatedly gone to the ARU with their ideas, why can't they say that? Show us some emails, give us the meeting requests that were turned down, send out the powerpoint with the ideas they wanted to present.

That's how you can really win this argument, and get some of the mud to stick.
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[Train Without a Station]

Right now the argument is spreading false and outdated claims to overstate their relevance in a modern, professional game.

 

[Gnostic]

Is the pyramid an apt analogy though? In some ways I actually think it’s inaccurate.



If you are defining the pyramid by active players, then yes the Wallabies are the apex and the ‘grassroots’ are at the bottom.



But if you are defining it by interest and importance, then surely the Wallabies should be way more prominently represented. The same is true if you are defining the pyramid by revenue brought into the game.



The success of the Wallabies is paramount to Australian rugby. It’s the key product the game has to offer, and this is where the comparisons to the AFL and NRL are difficult, especially in terms of funding. If the Wallabies are successful, everything becomes easier at all levels. It’s actually a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument- the Wallabies success helps grassroots growth, and vice-versa.





The weird part of this whole argument is the ARU is actually doubling the money they spend on grassroots development in their 5 year plan. So everyone is in agreement that we need to do more. We’re all just debating the best way of achieving the goal of greater playing numbers.

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The pyramid is the monetary aspect only. In terms of player numbers it is the reverse. I would also think if we look at game involvments, from fans to players the same would be true that the Grass roots produces the support base that the Wallabies revenue stream relies upon. That is those few hundred to few thousand that attend the games at all levels of the grass roots is equivalent to the Australian support base of the elite levels, perhaps forming an ugly flat top pyramid at best but more likely a square shape graphed. Remove the overlap (ie the supports of both grass roots and elite levels contributing in viewership and monetarily) in the two (which to some degree has been happening with a lot of players in the my local area having no access to pay TV and certainly we are too far away to regularly attend elite matches) and the elite level involvements actually appear more like the inverted pyramid.

Nobody in their right mind can dispute that the elite game is where the revenue is generated, and that will not change, but what the issue I have is with the unsustainable expenditure at the top end without sufficient "infrastructure" investment in the low end. We still do not have a scrum school/resource for all levels of the Australian game. Gilbert Enoka was last month taken on by the NZRU in a permenant role in much the same way that Mike CRon has been there for nearly a decade. Where are the equivalents in Australian Rugby to drive the same performance and development pathways?

I have always been opposed to the NRC/ARC simply because they create yet another layer in the pyramid. I along with everyone else who post here am a rugby tragic. Most here have some buy in to the NRC, I do not. I just couldn't get into it. There is no attachment there for me, I have about as much interest in it as I do in the Top 14 or the Japanese league. To me it another opportunity lost to create a long term sustainable funding and development pathway for the grassroots and is actually a drain on that as more management etc is created to run the new "clubs".

 

[Train Without a Station]

I have always been opposed to the NRC/ARC simply because they create yet another layer in the pyramid. I along with everyone else who post here am a rugby tragic. Most here have some buy in to the NRC, I do not. I just couldn't get into it. There is no attachment there for me, I have about as much interest in it as I do in the Top 14 or the Japanese league. To me it another opportunity lost to create a long term sustainable funding and development pathway for the grassroots and is actually a drain on that as more management etc is created to run the new "clubs".

What NRC funding would be available if not for the NRC?

The Fox Sport funding, the Private Consortium funding the Rams, the Vikings?

As for the pathway. The gulf between Shute Shield and Super Rugby has been evident for a long time now. It serves a significant purpose in bridging that gap through a club rugby to professional rugby pathway.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The Clubs' point is that the pie has significantly grown, but there is still ZERO coming to them.

At it's heart, this is about control. The new money into grassroots the ARU want control of, to the point of bypassing the clubs.


And so it comes to the question of who is better placed and set up to work on the ground. Volunteers in a community in it for the long term, or a professional organisation run from the top down.

In my view, the obvious answer would be that then need to work together. The professional organisation would realise that the local communities can do things that the pro organisation could never do, or realistically afford to do.

From what I've heard and read though, when it comes to a relationship the clubs have come to the table and provided - changing seasons, supporting NRC - the ARU refuse to.

Two other observations:

1 - I personally have quite a bit of experience over the years trying to work with the ARU through this site, putting forward ideas for collaboration that would benefit what I thought was our shared mission. In the end it never went anywhere because if the ARU doesn't own it, they're not interested.

In the coming weeks you'll see that now the ARU has some cash, they'll be having their own stab at what we do. There's already a podcast. *Sigh*


2 - A lot of what I read in this thread sounds like "f*ck you Uni/Randwick/Eastwood" my club has never had as much as you, etc.

I get that - it's part of the passion of club rugby. But as Gnostic points out above, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'm an advocate of bypassing the SS clubs and working directly with juniors and schools. I also played for one of the clubs in your second point. While some may indeed be commenting for those reasons my comments come from wanting to see the game grow and prosper.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The Clubs' point is that the pie has significantly grown, but there is still ZERO coming to them.

It's worth remembering that they are still getting value, if not $$$ for them to spend.

Among many other things....

They are getting televised games on FTA now being paid for by the ARU

They are getting sponsorship opportunities out of the televised NRC

They are getting players trained and (sometimes) paid by academies, EPS, age group teams, sevens etc.

They have a closed shop for recruiting anyone with ambition to play higher level rugby - they are getting a new influx of young players each year developed by lots of other members of the Rugby community.

 

[I like to watch]

What NRC funding would be available if not for the NRC?

The Fox Sport funding, the Private Consortium funding the Rams, the Vikings?

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how are the other 8 teams funded?

 

[Gagger]

I'm an advocate of bypassing the SS clubs and working directly with juniors and schools. I also played for one of the clubs in your second point. While some may indeed be commenting for those reasons my comments come from wanting to see the game grow and prosper.

So what happens when you get out of juniors (the SS clubs also run big junior programmes btw) or school and you haven't been picked up by a talent spotting programme putting you either in the U20s or a Super EPS squad?

You're a decent player and you want to give it a shot, subbies isn't going to get you there.

What do you do then, Viva7s?

 

[Train Without a Station]

how are the other 8 teams funded?

As for QLD Country, Brisbane City and the Melbourne Rising, they use existing resources.

They train out of the Super Rugby team facilities and the staff that are in assistant and below positions.

As far as I'm aware the ARU covers all the travel expenses and Asics provides the team kit, so that's the majority of the expenses isn't it?

 

[Dave Beat]

I'm an advocate of bypassing the SS clubs and working directly with juniors and schools. I also played for one of the clubs in your second point. While some may indeed be commenting for those reasons my comments come from wanting to see the game grow and prosper.

So what happens when you get out of juniors (the SS clubs also run big junior programmes btw) or school and you haven't been picked up by a talent spotting programme putting you either in the U20s or a Super EPS squad?

You're a decent player and you want to give it a shot, subbies isn't going to get you there.

And thus these 2 working together. As Gagger said earlier Premier Clubs maybe better in touch with the communities, out source to them to do the work with the juniors and schools - don't by pass them. By passing them we are not making use of our resources.

Still nobody at the ARU has come out and said this is how we are going to grow the juniors, or have they and I have missed it. There "how" maybe awesome - and we all may have a sigh of relief as Australian Rugby benefits - so our game grows and prospers.




BTW - ARU will have a huge hill to climb to get anywhere near GAGR

 

[Strewthcobber]

So what happens when you get out of juniors (the SS clubs also run big junior programmes btw) or school and you haven't been picked up by a talent spotting programme putting you either in the U20s or a Super EPS squad?

You're a decent player and you want to give it a shot, subbies isn't going to get you there.

What do you do then, Viva7s?

What's happened to the SS clubs in this scenario?
They aren't going to just disappear because they're not getting some development money right?

SUrely the pathway for your player is exactly as it is now, except he's playing with ARU funded players at each club rather than club funded ones?

 

[I like to watch]

You are not seriously suggesting that the Bris & Melb sides come stay no cost to anybody?
What about the other 5 teams?
And the airfares come at no cost to ARU?
Im not against this investment,I just contest the view that it comes at no cost to the game.

 

[Train Without a Station]

You are not seriously suggesting that the Bris & Melb sides come stay no cost to anybody?
What about the other 5 teams?
And the airfares come at no cost to ARU?
Im not against this investment,I just contest the view that it comes at no cost to the game.

Well doesn't the Foxtel sponsorship cover the travel costs of the tournament?

What costs do they incur?

Coaches? Already employed by Super Rugby side.
Staff? Already employed by Super Rugby side.
Super Rugby players? Already employed by Super Rugby side.
Facilities? Already in place from Super Rugby side.

They are making use of full time employees who traditionally have a great deal of down time from June to December.

What costs are in addition to the existing Super Rugby franchises? The only one I can think of is payment for non-contracted players. But keep in mind, these teams pay supplementary players to train with them in the pre-season, so this may not even be an additional expense, as it would be off-set by what they would pay in the longer pre-christmas training.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So what happens when you get out of juniors (the SS clubs also run big junior programmes btw) or school and you haven't been picked up by a talent spotting programme putting you either in the U20s or a Super EPS squad?

You're a decent player and you want to give it a shot, subbies isn't going to get you there.

What do you do then, Viva7s?

Do they? The only involvement from SS clubs I ever saw was come rep time. Even then it was only in the form of a kit. The coaches were a combination of club coaches as were the team managers. I honestly never saw anything from Randwick outside of that until I entered Colts. Hell, in my age group there were only 2 clubs that formed the rep side.

I know in Queensland many of the Premier Rugby clubs run extensive junior programs were a kid can effectively play for one club from junior through to golden oldies but that's not necessarily true in my experience.

 

[Gagger]

Do they? The only involvement from SS clubs I ever saw was come rep time. Even then it was only in the form of a kit. The coaches were a combination of club coaches as were the team managers. I honestly never saw anything from Randwick outside of that until I entered Colts. Hell, in my age group there were only 2 clubs that formed the rep side.

I know in Queensland many of the Premier Rugby clubs run extensive junior programs were a kid can effectively play for one club from junior through to golden oldies but that's not necessarily true in my experience.

I believe Randwick field 150 kids per weekend.

 

[dru]

I have always been opposed to the NRC/ARC simply because they create yet another layer in the pyramid. I along with everyone else who post here am a rugby tragic. Most here have some buy in to the NRC, I do not. I just couldn't get into it. There is no attachment there for me, I have about as much interest in it as I do in the Top 14 or the Japanese league. To me it another opportunity lost to create a long term sustainable funding and development pathway for the grassroots and is actually a drain on that as more management etc is created to run the new "clubs".

Gnostic, the sad thing with this is that the ARU show every ability to pull it off. NRC funding is set for years and enthusiasm grows everywhere bar Sydney. You might not like it, and certainly when it first hit the floor boards there was every reason to be skeptical. But it sure looks like it will stay for a couple of years at least.

Waratahs, NSWRU, the involved SS clubs need to sort themselves out with an eye on where the rugby numbers are. But this NRC looks like turning into a winner.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What's happened to the SS clubs in this scenario?
They aren't going to just disappear because they're not getting some development money right?

SUrely the pathway for your player is exactly as it is now, except he's playing with ARU funded players at each club rather than club funded ones?

So what happens when you get out of juniors (the SS clubs also run big junior programmes btw) or school and you haven't been picked up by a talent spotting programme putting you either in the U20s or a Super EPS squad?

You're a decent player and you want to give it a shot, subbies isn't going to get you there.

What do you do then, Viva7s?

I knew more than a few blokes who took it upon themselves to create their own opportunities and sort out clubs. Some shone others decided it wasn't for them. I'm not against SS Rugby. Like P.Tah I quite enjoy it and it has its place but it has been positioning itself as an elite pathway for quite some time now. And it should concentrate on that. On developing a self sustaining entity and allowing othere namely the village clubs with actual juniors etc. the true lofe blood of the game to develop.