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Australian Rugby / RA

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I think they're really (effectively) 2-way contracts but the ARU / RA has to rubber stamp them, so to speak. At the end of the day, they are primarily contracted to their Super Team. It would be frustrating from the POV of the peak body. Maybe the Kiwis are onto something, but I've banged that drum enough times. ;)
Did Larkham say he "could not" or probably "would not" get selected? Semantics, I know, but a subtle difference.
I’ve beaten the same drum.
I can see QC (Quade Cooper) wanting to stay in QLD. Never his biggest fan but this is no way for it to end.
I haven’t seen the Larkham comments but either way means Cheika has altered position - maybe he expected the situation to work itself out so QC (Quade Cooper) was playing super rugby.
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
Cyclo & IS are you guys suggesting that RA should be able to direct Quade to play for (say) the Brumbies? Surely that would be contrary to any number of laws not to mention being morally indefensible IMO. Not sure where you're coming from with the "kiwi" reference but I can assure you NZR doesn't tell the players who they'll be playing for.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
Like the NBA, NFL and even in Ireland you can actually be an employee of the league as well as the franchise. This allows NBA players etc. to be traded to locations without their consent, basically their contract guarantees a financial figure but it does not guarantee the location or role in which they are playing. It's only been in recent years players have enacted no trade clauses, once they are officially free agents and able to negotiate their own salaries. It'd require RA to draft contracts going forward similar to what happens in the US, however players have managed to gain control over their IP, where as over here that belongs to the franchises or unions (if they have a dual contract), so there has been some trade off.
 

Bandar

Bob Loudon (25)
Cyclo & IS are you guys suggesting that RA should be able to direct Quade to play for (say) the Brumbies? Surely that would be contrary to any number of laws not to mention being morally indefensible IMO. Not sure where you're coming from with the "kiwi" reference but I can assure you NZR doesn't tell the players who they'll be playing for.


Isn't there a draft in NZ?
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
^^^^^ Not in the American sense, no, and there never has been. At one time there was a system whereby each franchise nominated 25 players who were off-limits to the other franchises, anyone not so nominated became a "draft player" but not to the extent of being directed who to play for, they still had to come to terms with another franchise.

NZR famously once told the Crusaders they couldn't have Carter, Brett & Slade on their books at the same time but all that did was take Brett & Slade off the protected player list, Brett still had to agree to go to the Blues & Slade to the Highlanders. Hobson's choice, perhaps, but still a choice.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Cyclo & IS are you guys suggesting that RA should be able to direct Quade to play for (say) the Brumbies? Surely that would be contrary to any number of laws not to mention being morally indefensible IMO. Not sure where you're coming from with the "kiwi" reference but I can assure you NZR doesn't tell the players who they'll be playing for.
Central Contracting is all I am talking about.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
^^^^^ Not in the American sense, no, and there never has been. At one time there was a system whereby each franchise nominated 25 players who were off-limits to the other franchises, anyone not so nominated became a "draft player" but not to the extent of being directed who to play for, they still had to come to terms with another franchise.

NZR famously once told the Crusaders they couldn't have Carter, Brett & Slade on their books at the same time but all that did was take Brett & Slade off the protected player list, Brett still had to agree to go to the Blues & Slade to the Highlanders. Hobson's choice, perhaps, but still a choice.
Is that no longer the system?
Any idea if there is a difference between the pay in nz and aus?
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
Central Contracting is all I am talking about.

Thank God for that. Not that it'd be much help in the current circumstances, though.

Is that no longer the system?
Any idea if there is a difference between the pay in nz and aus?

1. No.
2. Simple maths (salary cap /squad size) suggests Aus is on average well above NZ. Hard to know to what % as the structures are so different but apparently Garden-Bachop took a pay cut to come back so I think that's a fair indicator i.e. he's not exactly a (pre-controversy) Folau or a Quade, just an average Super Rugby player.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Thank God for that. Not that it'd be much help in the current circumstances, though.



1. No.
2. Simple maths (salary cap /squad size) suggests Aus is on average well above NZ. Hard to know to what % as the structures are so different but apparently Garden-Bachop took a pay cut to come back so I think that's a fair indicator i.e. he's not exactly a (pre-controversy) Folau or a Quade, just an average Super Rugby player.
All in all, then, our blokes are overpaid.
Carry on.
 

dru

David Wilson (68)
All in all, then, our blokes are overpaid.
Carry on.

Probably. Note though that GDP/population is $10k US less in NZ than Aus. Different marketplaces and if translates to wages Ave Aus wage is about 25% higher here.

And sadly the draw of a gold jersey is not the dampener on wages that a black jersey is.
 

RebelYell

Arch Winning (36)
Thank God for that. Not that it'd be much help in the current circumstances, though.



1. No.
2. Simple maths (salary cap /squad size) suggests Aus is on average well above NZ. Hard to know to what % as the structures are so different but apparently Garden-Bachop took a pay cut to come back so I think that's a fair indicator i.e. he's not exactly a (pre-controversy) Folau or a Quade, just an average Super Rugby player.

Evidence of Garden-Bachop taking a pay cut? Seems highly unlikely seeing as their ITM Cup contract could conceivably cover his FDP contract, let alone the Super Rugby element..
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
^^^^^^ no hard evidence, obviously, but I'd be surprised if he were on much more than the NZ average so unless he was on unders at the Rebs I reckon he's taken a cut & that's certainly the way it's been portrayed in the media.

Re: Mitre 10 Cup, maximum salary is (from memory) $65K. Not sure what an FDP contract is worth so don't know if it would cover the difference.
 

zer0

John Thornett (49)
A summary of the current NZ pay scales and systems can be found here.

For Super Rugby specifically (all in NZD, obviously):

NZ Rugby Contract (RC) [standard Super Rugby contract]
a) Minimum Super Rugby Retainer $75k, maximum $195k
b) U20 players max $75k year 1, 100k year 2 (DC counts as year 1)

NZ Rugby Draft Contract (DC) [formerly wider training group contract]
a) Fixed Retainer of $50k
b) Fully available for Selection

NZ Rugby Interim Contract (IC) [injury cover, can be upgraded]
a) Generally used for replacement players
b) Minimum Retainer $1,800 per week
c) Fully available for selection
d) Commutes to $50k (inclusive of payments made) if in match day travelling squad
ten times

IDK where to find similar deets for Australia.
 

Rebel with a cause

Bob McCowan (2)
ARUs Recipe for Mediocrity
Ben Whitaker, entrusted the U20s Australian selection process to a Queensland selector and coach, and to nobody’s surprise was duped, resulting in a National team dominated by past Queensland schoolboys. For Queensland to have equal numbers with the rest of the country would be questionable , for them to have 16 players to the rest of the country’s 12 is beyond ludicrous.
– And it’s not as if the Queensland results for this year group have been even close to being special. Two years agowhen these boys were 18 after their Qld teams came 5th and 6th in the National schoolboy tournament the same selector chose these Qld boys to dominate selections in the Aus schoolboys side. This side was beaten by the NZ “A” and “B” team
Did the results this year in the U20s Oceania championships with all the same Qlders in this side indicate that things had turned around? Being soundly beaten once again by New Zealand suggests a resounding NO!
But a lot of these players are Super Rugby players for the Reds, I here you say, and therefore are automatic selections. Why??? Are the Reds on top of the Australian Conference or are they in a rebuilding phase and including a lot of young boys in their sides. Its certainly not happening in Waratah land where players like Swinton and Macauley from last years Aus 20s can’t even get a guernsey let alone talented Waratah 20s players. And None of these Reds boys would be making the Waratahs super rugby side.
It is a National disgrace that selections at this level can be anything else but transparent. These selections were based on the opinions of two Qlders who asked for no feedback from State coaches on the form of these players. And it’s not as if these selectors have done their research and were picking form players from other states. – Two of the players from NSW that were selected have been injured all year and didn’t play until the Oceania championships – and then one of these boys was admonished on social media for poor performance in the NZ loss. Selection stupidity or negligence??
How do NSW players that made the team last year not get a guernsey this year. Harrison Goddard, Dan Mathews, James Ramm were good enough to make the team last year but not under this Queensland regime - Goddard is playing Super Rugby and starred in the U20s Aus team last year. (The reply will be that Super Rugby wouldn’t let him go due to Genia’s injury but he was not selected way before that- Giving Tate and Lonergan captaincy in successive games spoke volumes)
So what happens to the talented players from other states that have had their pathway to National selection blocked by this Qld coach and selector? Super rugby franchises will look to cherry pick from the selected Aus National side. These talented players that were overlooked will have to be content with training their guts out battling for recognition in their own state squads. Some talented boys however like Jaffer-Williams, disillusioned with a corrupt and political selection system will toss in the towel and be lost to Rugby possibly for good.
The ARU has a responsibility to provide a pathway for all the boys from all the states not just Qld. The ARU has been negligent in their duty to ensure that the best in-form players are chosen from an even playing field. As a result we have ended up with a state side masquerading as a National side that is once again destined for mediocrity. The ARU needs to ensure that these boys from NSW, Vic and Brumbies end up in NRC teams this year so that they can follow a pathway to professionalism and not be lost to the politics and officials with agendas that are destroying the sport.
The team breakdown to travel to the World Championships in France is below
16 QLD, 7 NSW, 5 ACT
Queensland 16
Angus Blyth, Bond University Lock QLD Southport School Qld
Matt Faessler, Brothers Hooker QLD Toowoomba Grammar QLD
Harry Hockings, University of Queensland Lock QLD Anglican Church Grammar QLD
Harry Hoopert, Brothers Prop QLD Toowoomba Grammar School QLD
Trevor Hosea, Harlequins Lock QLD Brisbane Boys College QLD
Efi Ma’afu, Wests Hooker QLD Ipswich Grammer QLD
Fraser McReight, Brothers Back Row QLD Brisbane Grammar School QLD
Josh Nasser, University of Queensland Prop QLD St Joseph’s Gregory Terrace QLDPatrick Tafa, Norths (Sydney), No 8 QLD Brisbane State High School QLD
Lawson Creighton, Brothers Fullback QLD Padua College QLD
Tony Hunt, Norths Centre QLD St Joseph’s College Nudgee QLD
Len Ikitau, Vikings Centre QLD Brisbane Boys College QLD
Isaac Lucas, Sunnybank Fly half QLD St Joseph’s College Gregory Terrace QLD
Tate McDermott, University of Queensland ScrumHalf QLD Toowoomba Grammar QLD
Jordan Petaia, Wests Centre QLD Brisbane State High School Qld
Semisi Tupou, Box Hill Fullback QLD St Joseph’s College Nudgee Qld

NSW 7
Sama Malolo, Endeavour Hills
Esei Ha'angana, Melbourne Unicorns
George Francis, Eastwood
Josh Kemeny, Sydney University
Rory Suttor, Sydney University

Matt McTaggert, Easts
Bayley Kuenzle, Southern Districts

ACT 5
Rob Valetini, Wests
Ryan Lonergan, Vikings
Mack Hansen, Gungahlin
Tom Ross, Gungahlin
Isiah Latu, Queanbeyan
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Cyclo & IS are you guys suggesting that RA should be able to direct Quade to play for (say) the Brumbies? Surely that would be contrary to any number of laws not to mention being morally indefensible IMO. Not sure where you're coming from with the "kiwi" reference but I can assure you NZR doesn't tell the players who they'll be playing for.

No, I mean they have central contracting worked out way better. It seems quite ham-fisted here.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
That does seem to be the case but how would it solve the Quade situation?

It wouldn't. There was too much going on in my post. The ARU has little control once they have stamped the contract, despite sometimes paying a big chunk of the players' wages, and I could see their frustration in that. I have been going on about a better centralised contract system for ages. Can you recall this type of situation arising in NZ recently?
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
^^^^^^^^ not recently, no, you'd have to go back to the early days of pro rugby when it took some of the players a while to realise it was their job & they couldn't have a big night on the drink/ ciggies/ weed without it having consequences. Even then it was generally dealt with & sorted in a matter of weeks not months. I can't recall a player of note & a team ever reaching this kind of impasse, though.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
As always, Alan Jones is ready to save Rugby - except for his take on NRC, he is spot on.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...y/news-story/fd6a5a01baaf5d181a39b56b59639dd0


This is behind a paywall. I had a quick look at it in the lobby of our building this morning. Big on concepts, short on detail. I stopped reading when I got to the bit about increased spending on grassroots rugby. Motherhood and apple pie!!


Where does the money come from?


As for canning the NRC, while I do think that it is flawed, most of us here seem to agree that we do need some kind of third tier national competition. Going back to a situation where there is no third tier is just unspeakably stupid.

And assuming that the Keewees will march to the sound of our drum is optimistic. Yes, they might. What happens if they don't?


Easy to write this stuff, hard or impossible to implement it. Particularly as a package.
 
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