Australian Rugby / RA

[half]

Despite your thesis you have never once proposed a solution apart from ‘national competition’.

Who are these teams? Who supports them? How would it be any different from ARC/NRC?

cough cough

Are you serious, I have put forward heaps of comments on the issues with junior teams its a joke how we manage junior rugby in Sydney.

OMG, whats the difference between the Nobody Really Cares concepts to a National Domestic Competition.

Were to start.

If you read my posts over the years, I repeatedly said it will take five years to get off the ground. To use the Super Rugby income in part to fund the development of a new competition.

The first 18 months in discussions with all stakeholders including media on the need to have such a competition.

The next 12 months in developing a system that had the support of the broader Rugby community across all stake holders.

The next 6 months determining where the teams should be located.

The next 12 to 18 months looking for investors, sponsors to invest in the new competition.

The last few months in implementing the above plan.

Both the ARC & NRC where the brain farts of Flower & Pulver developed in a broad room in about six months with little to no negotiation with other stakeholders. This alone doomed it to fail.

The error and error is way to kind a word is the mega, massive, huge, large, big error that both the ARC & NRC were rushed and forced upon the Rugby community with way to little negotiation with various stakeholders effected and then any objection by other stakeholders both ignored and over ridden.

One of the few things that Football got right was a thing called the Australia Cup, last year close to 800 clubs took part. In brief its similar to the FA Cup in England where any team can play in a national knock out competition. They took about 3 and a half years in negotiation with all stakeholders to agree on how it would run and operate. Then about 3 months to set up.

The importance of getting everyone on broad has never been at the heart of RA decision making.

 

[half]

Pretty good summation Half. that relationship with Fox from the early years was telling, it was the golden child there for a while. But it didn't adapt or head the warning signs which were there from day one, as the other codes evolved with the landscape and changed, rugby didn't, or couldn't

About every 4 years a new broadcast deal was done and it's those deals that sealed the fate imo for rugby though, I don't think you can understate the long tern damage done, yes the money increased but for Australia it never addressed the fundamentals of what the game needed here, domestic growth to compete against the AFL & NRL.

It was all about revenue, remember someone signed off on a Japanese based team playing its home games in Singapore against teams from South Africa

Hoggy

Go back in time to those Super League Wars. Fox wanted sport to get Fox subscribers off the ground.

First they went after league, and also AFL. 9 & 7 had league and AFL wrapped up and did not want Fox to get a foothold in.

They got Rugby and its all they really had, so they paid well over what it was worth and then pushed it their papers.

Anyone with any knowledge of the media when Rugby was being paid about 25% more per game than AFL per game knew this will not last.

In time Fox got both League and AFL, which were hugely more important than Rugby was to them.

However, people simply believed the hype, and most never looked beyond the hype as its what they wanted to hear.

 

[Adam84]

everyone's a genius with hindsight eh...

 

[half]

everyone's a genius with hindsight eh...

Sorry mate I have been arguing my points for well over 20 years, Its no hindsight.

Over those 20 + years, especially in the early 2000's people were very vocal in saying I was crazy. Crazy was what the kind said, the cruel were way worst.

My objections to the Nobody Really Cares competitions were like others who said it was a terrible idea, mocked, laughed at and attacked.

References I made to other models, especially US sports franchise models, were I pointed out the success of the MLS in the USA as a new competition getting off the ground, and Football's A-League in Australia, was met with constant attacks especially the only Football comments. Further how badly the A-League has failed.

I wish and go for it if you like but I wish our last season was as successful as the A-Leagues last season. Remember I rarely make statements like this without proof.

 

[Adam84]

Sorry mate I have been arguing my points for well over 20 years, Its no hindsight.

Over those 20 + years, especially in the early 2000's people were very vocal in saying I was crazy. Crazy was what the kind said, the cruel were way worst.

My objections to the Nobody Really Cares competitions were like others who said it was a terrible idea, mocked, laughed at and attacked.

References I made to other models, especially US sports franchise models, were I pointed out the success of the MLS in the USA as a new competition getting off the ground, and Football's A-League in Australia, was met with constant attacks especially the only Football comments. Further how badly the A-League has failed.

I wish and go for it if you like but I wish our last season was as successful as the A-Leagues last season. Remember I rarely make statements like this without proof.

So you keep telling us..
You joined this forum in the second season of the NRC where most people already agreed the model wasn't the right one... hindsight eh

What social circles are you hanging in 20 years ago where you're mocked, laughed at and attacked..

 

[Sully]

I put this together back in 2020 in relation to crowd figures in Australia (For some years the figures weren't available or were incomplete back in 2020 when I put it together so weren't included.)

Reds (from 2005 all home games at Suncorp)
2003 - 18,425* (home games at Ballymore)
2004 - 19,730** (5 home games at Ballymore and 1 at Suncorp)
2005 - 18,130
2009 - 18,647
2010 - 22,826
2011 - 33,253
2012 - 34,479
2013 - 31,836
2014 - 28,489
2015 - 21,780
2016 - 16,605
2017 - 15,115
2018 - 12,101
2019 - 11,351

Brumbies (the consistently best performing Aust team - all games at Canberra/Bruce/GIO Stadium)
2003 - 21,536
2004 - 21,450
2005 22,895
2009 -17,160
2010 - 15,520
2011 - 13,303
2012 - 14,419
2013 - 14,247
2014 - 12,410
2015 - 12,445
2016 - 12,135
2017 - 9,886
2018 - 8,391
2019 - 8,798

Waratahs
2003 - 30,521
2004 - 34,500
2005 - 33,739
2009 - 22,430
2010 - 20,204
2011 - 20,493
2012 - 20,936
2013 - 16,949
2014 - 19,500
2015 - 22,415
2016 - 20,322
2017 - 14,499
2018 - 13,511
2019 - unavailable but anecdotally under 10,000 per game

NB: The Reds would have packed out Suncorp in 2011 as they had a great team and won. Their crowds held up longer than the others.
Likewise the Waratahs were just as popular in 2014 because they won. (and it wasn't till they made the finals that the crowds picked up)
In 2019 the Waratahs stopped make their crowd figures public so no stats were available.

Note the trends (average Super Rugby home crowds)

Also, I'm not asserting that 2006 was a dividing line, but it is clear that over time the trend was in an ever increasing downward spiral. My oft stated position in these threads has been that the administration of rugby is Australia has been a complete trainwreck for 20 years (or more). Interesting that quite a few or those who ridiculed people like me have now adopted the "20 years of mismanagement" mantra as an excuse for the current dire position.

A competent and forward looking administration would have noted signs of decline early and taken steps to transition from Super Rugby to a national club competition at some point if not around 2010, then certainly by 2015. No Super Rugby franchise in Australia turns a profit - in the professional era the game has been funded by the Wallabies. Imagine a world where all the millions thrown at Super Rugby (and the ARC and the NRC) had instead been used to set up a national club competition (like most sports in Australia have). Now the Wallabies ability to generate money is damaged by the chaos and dysfunction beneath and as a game we are going to struggle to maintain a full time professional game in the short to medium term.

Some rough figure during covid and with the Tahs stadium rebuild, but I have updated a bit.

Reds (from 2005 all home games at Suncorp)
2003 - 18,425* (home games at Ballymore)
2004 - 19,730** (5 home games at Ballymore and 1 at Suncorp)
2005 - 18,130
2009 - 18,647
2010 - 22,826
2011 - 33,253
2012 - 34,479
2013 - 31,836
2014 - 28,489
2015 - 21,780
2016 - 16,605
2017 - 15,115
2018 - 12,101
2019 - 11,351
2020 - 9,075
2021 - 18,699
2022 - 13,713
2023 - 12,582
2024 - 14,527

Brumbies (the consistently best performing Aust team - all games at Canberra/Bruce/GIO Stadium)
2003 - 21,536
2004 - 21,450
2005 22,895
2009 -17,160
2010 - 15,520
2011 - 13,303
2012 - 14,419
2013 - 14,247
2014 - 12,410
2015 - 12,445
2016 - 12,135
2017 - 9,886
2018 - 8,391
2019 - 8,798
2020 - 4,716
2021 - 7,396
2022 - 7,568
2023 - 9,213
2024 - 8,025

Waratahs
2003 - 30,521
2004 - 34,500
2005 - 33,739
2009 - 22,430
2010 - 20,204
2011 - 20,493
2012 - 20,936
2013 - 16,949
2014 - 19,500
2015 - 22,415
2016 - 20,322
2017 - 14,499
2018 - 13,511
2019 - 13,690
2020 - 5,265
2021 - 5,170
2022 - 8,265
2023 - Too small a sample size
2024 - 12,615

 

[dru]

everyone's a genius with hindsight eh...

Am I missing something, Adam, in the specifics that led to this comment? Because honestly, my first my knee jerk response was "utter, utter horse shite", until who I saw posted it. And then my thinking was, come on Adam, you're better than that.

Sorry mate I have been arguing my points for well over 20 years, Its no hindsight.

Easily true.

These pages x 1,000 started in 2013. There are plenty, definitely myself, who have been talking the issues for over a decade.

[Edit: in fact if there weren't a stack of fans talking about concerns, there is no chance this thread reaches 1,000 pages.]

 

[Mick The Munch]

NRL - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rugby_League#Attendance

2003	2,965,141	15,689	81,166
2004	3,010,639	15,929	82,127
2005	3,276,675	17,337	82,453
2006	3,115,700	16,485	79,609
2007	3,332,114	16,578	81,392
2008	3,279,663	16,317	80,388
2009	3,412,872	16,980	82,538
2010	3,491,890	17,373	82,334
2011	3,464,207	17,235	81,988
2012	3,486,494	17,346	82,976
2013	3,345,248	16,643	81,491
2014	3,376,409	16,798	83,833
2015	3,230,867	16,074	82,758
2016	3,228,623	16,063	83,625
2017	3,018,795	15,246	79,722
2018	3,257,235	16,205	82,688
2019	3,176,561	15,804	82,922
2020	671,412*	5,245*	37,303
2021	2,083,258†	10,364†	39,322
2022	3,265,911	16,248	82,415
2023	4,086,547	19,186	81,947

 

[Dan54]

Not back to Super 12.

Wasn't suggesting going back to it, but admit it fellas it was a great comp, packed out crowds etc. You know what else it didn't really have? The internet where almost any sport cops it from all the keyboard warriors! Negativity being repeated constantly takes on a life. And before you all splutter and whoosh etc, go back over this and almost any forum on rugby, or any sports, and ingeneral there is a lot of negative posts.

 

[Derpus]

The final definitive argument for a domestic competition - James Doleman is a Kiwi.

 

[hoggy]

Or when your domestic season is finished by the 14th June.

 

[pnut]

So you keep telling us..
You joined this forum in the second season of the NRC where most people already agreed the model wasn't the right one... hindsight eh

What social circles are you hanging in 20 years ago where you're mocked, laughed at and attacked..

Wow

 

[pnut]

Thank god super rugby is over. Yawn

 

[Adam84]

Am I missing something, Adam, in the specifics that led to this comment? Because honestly, my first my knee jerk response was "utter, utter horse shite", until who I saw posted it. And then my thinking was, come on Adam, you're better than that.

Easily true.

These pages x 1,000 started in 2013. There are plenty, definitely myself, who have been talking the issues for over a decade.

[Edit: in fact if there weren't a stack of fans talking about concerns, there is no chance this thread reaches 1,000 pages.]

yes that's my point.. these issues have been discussed for years/decades by a variety of people, there is no single martyr to the cause of this issue

 

[Pfitzy]

I can explain in much more detail if you want,

Please don't.

 

[dru]

yes that's my point.. these issues have been discussed for years/decades by a variety of people, there is no single martyr to the cause of this issue

Though I would think that ARU/RA is a pretty common factor.

 

[half]

So you keep telling us..
You joined this forum in the second season of the NRC where most people already agreed the model wasn't the right one... hindsight eh

What social circles are you hanging in 20 years ago where you're mocked, laughed at and attacked..

Honestly, let me first apologise for not being a social media type, I don't have a facebook account, twitter, intergram or Tick Toc. I don't post on the Roar, this is my only whats loosely called social media activity.

Second, I have / had three very influential media clients, one retired in 2010, another passed away in 2014. Both were very very very senior executives in their roles. The client who passed away in 2014 was so senior he sat at the table of all the major media deals from the late mid 90's until he passed and could phone the head of any code and his call would be taken. Using the research of the client who retired in 2010 he was one of the main decision makers on what to pay each of the codes for their media deals [he used to tell me months before they were announced]. Both were Sydney boys who worked in Melbourne, with aside from wife and kids the rest of the family in Sydney.

We had many afternoons mostly Fridays over many Hunter Reds discussing sport and they told me a lot and often shared their research with me. Prior to 2015 posting what I knew would have been a total breach of trust and could have got them into trouble.

The third client is still going and runs a media company out of the Central Coast, he researches and looks for youtubes that he is asked to do by the three commercial networks. He has a lot of contact across many in the media. BTW he is a mad keen nutter when it comes to Football and the Central Coast Mariners.

AS to who I spoke to, mostly people on local committees, and some people at Eastwood Rugby.

But I ask and often asked this question, what world do you live in where you think a 3 hour AFL game with its rating is worth about 75% of rugby games often played at unfriendly times. Further if you read media analysis of the day, that Fox / News overpaid was often a topic and the often response was to get Fox subscriptions up. To assume I was the only one belies how great the belief in the hype was because many business analysis were saying the same thing as I posted above.

 

[GPSlads]

I mean yeah. I fully expect RA to limp to financial salvation now, only to blow it all and declare bankruptcy in 10 years.

I'm just saying that with a little vision and balls the potential is there. A domestic competition with properly aligned development pathways combined with a champions cup typed comp with NZ and Japan.

A man can dream, anyway...

I like your passion and agree with your domestic comp
Vision …. but do you really think RA would get rid of teams like the Waratahs? They are interlinked pretty much with RA in the boardroom , and look at all their facilities at Moore park .. you think that will be all be given up ?

 

[Omar Comin']

I like your passion and agree with your domestic comp
Vision …. but do you really think RA would get rid of teams like the Waratahs? They are interlinked pretty much with RA in the boardroom , and look at all their facilities at Moore park .. you think that will be all be given up ?

Why would they need to be given up? The existing Super Rugby teams would form the basis of a national competition, you'd just need at least 2 more teams (assuming the Drua are involved and the Rebels resurrected). 1 would have to be another team in Sydney, with the 8th either a 3rd Sydney team or a 2nd in Brisbane/South East QLD. Unless Twiggy or another billionaire really wants to fund a team somewhere else.

I think there's a good chance this will happen at some point. That or NZ will agree to an open eligibility policy within Super Rugby to even up the competition.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

Football

Football's A-League in Australia

Football

A-League

Football