• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

Australia vs South Africa - Brisbane 7th Sept 2013

Status
Not open for further replies.

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
It is just not that simple - if you have players who are great at set peice but no good around the park you are equally doomed. Otherwise you'd better score all your points off first phase. Last night it was the breakdown where we were really killed. At the end of the day, your pack has to be able to do both.

Unfortunately last night we did neither.

I'm not understanding this.
We were shit at the breakdown.
How can it be said we are picking players who are good around the park in preference to blokes who are good at the set piece?
We were shit at the set piece.
How can it be said we are picking set piece players?
We don't have enough athletes to pick from.
We have players without basic skills. The time has past when you can hide one dimensional players.
This is the manifestation of a failure in the very base of the game.
 

Shiggins

Simon Poidevin (60)
That was shit. I think we try to hard. Other teams wry rarely score try's from well planned set piece moves. It's all About mistakes. I would prefer us to play a similar game plan to the brumbies. That's best suited to test rugby, unlike the reds game.
As for changes I would give nick white a go
And bring back Tamooa. Tamooa was better then quade In both games he played previously. Quade hasn't been in great form for a couple of
Years. Not bad form either, just average.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Firstly the posts of Redshappy and a few other discussing the dearth of quality coaching at elite levels is spot on IMO. Why is it that so many players at elite level in Australian rugby have glaring skill weaknesses that have been present throughout their careers? For example, I see why AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is selected, he is consistent and offers one of the only real threats against a structured defence. That said his game and skill set has not developed in his entire career. Go back 5 years and you will see Brumbies fans discussing how quick he was, such a great fend, defence etc, but then note how he cannot pass effectively out of his right hand (left to right). Look at how oppositions defend against him and you will see that they are aware of this. Why is this skill deficit still so significant in his play after all these years at elite level.

- the scrum. So much comment and all focussed on individual players such as Kepu. I would invite people to go back and have a look at the scrum from the very start. That is from when the 8 start to bind on each other. The Australian scrum is fatally flawed from the set up, before the opposition is even thought of. The Tight five is not tight and is not even setting up correctly. The easiest way to see it is look at the angles of the middle 4 in relation to the front 3 and points of contact the locks are making with the props.
1) The angles - the backs of the front and second rows are not parallel, with the props horizontal and the locks head down bum up. High school physics tells you that force moves in straight lines so the locks force is not being transferred efficiently to the props and hooker and could in fact be destabilising.
2) The point of contact. The locks especially are not getting low enough on the bind and consequently are contacting the props and hooker on the cheek of the bum instead of under it. Last night was a great example because you can see in the one shot of the Bok locks and flankers on their knees to bind on the front row and then standing up in preparation for the engage. The Wallabies never get down low enough to bind and hence start high. When the drive comes on the locks slide up the back of the prop offering no thrust, and in more than one example they detach completely.
3)The binding - Simmons at TH lock is of concern to me, Kepu was under massive pressure all night from the DuPlesis/Beast combo driving on him and splitting him from Moore. To counter this he appeared to me to shift his angle onto DuPlesis when he should have perhaps shifted out onto Beast? The biggest issue came here where DuPlesis was able to time and again split Kepu from Moore with Kepu's hips moving away from the hooker. If Simmons' bind was effective this should have been difficult to achieve.
4)The new laws - in many ways I think that a return to true competition at the scrum instead of it all being about the hit is showing up Australia's deficiencies to a greater extent. Players like Alexander, Kepu Moore and perhaps even Robinson and Palmer were reasonable and sometimes dominant at the hit. Apart from Robinson however they have also had plenty of issues technically. Now that the hit is gone and it is about pure technique and TEAMWORK, I think the true weaknesses in Australian scrummaging are becoming apparent. Changing individuals will not alter the outcomes because as I outlined above the basic skills are missing or not being applied.

IMO until the basic skills of the players are raised these sorts of failures will continue to occur regardless of who is picked. Individually I believe that the players are perhaps the best or equal to the best Australia has available. They do not even look remotely like a team and no game plan will be effective whilst this remains the case. I do hope they read this and take the critique on board, but I doubt that will be the case, because in many cases I think the attitude is one of the Matt Burke mould, we the arm chair critics, the part time journalists and amateur coaches and players have not experienced the game at the level they are at and hence have nothing of relevance to add.
 

TSR

Andrew Slack (58)
I'm not understanding this.
We were shit at the breakdown.
How can it be said we are picking players who are good around the park in preference to blokes who are good at the set piece?
We were shit at the set piece.
How can it be said we are picking set piece players?
We don't have enough athletes to pick from.
We have players without basic skills. The time has past when you can hide one dimensional players.
This is the manifestation of a failure in the very base of the game.
Sorry IS. I understand your confusion. I am not trying to describe how the Wallabies are playing - I guess I am trying to explain what I believe McKenzie's approach is.

I am also trying to explain that I don't think we can revert to picking players solely on set peice ability at the expense of the rest of the game. I'm not trying to understate the importance of set peice - and I sure as hell wish ours were a lot better.
 

hughbert

Herbert Moran (7)
Running rugby must be the most misunderstood concept in Australian sport. What is doesn't mean is that you never kick and/or you chuck the ball wide no matter what the circumstance. It's built on a dominant forward pack, supported by skilful backs. You can't have 1 without the other.

In order to be able to play any sort of positive/entertaining/running/expansive game, the team first needs to secure its own ball from lineouts and and scrums. So, this idea of picking tight forwards who can't fulfil that role but are "good around the field" is the first problem. Until that is addressed, there is going to be little improvement against the top teams. Once you've sorted that out, then you need to secure your own ball at the tackle (all 15 players have a role in this). When and only when you have these 2 things sorted out, you can play decent rugby. If you can't sort those things out then the type of game or tactics you employ are secondary, bordering on irrelevent.

My point was that we will never consistently win agains the top 2 (or more) sides until we sideline this "entertainment" stuff and just focus on doing on what it takes to win.
 

tekay

Peter Burge (5)
Fatcat must come back. New laws aside, the Wallabies scrum is so pathetically weak at the moment that bringing back our best scrummager is the
the right place to start.

There seems to be no cohesion of rythmn to the Wobs either, everything seems rushed and impulsive. We know how good Genia can be but he looks indecisive and uncomposed at present and this is the result of a disjointed, loose, hit and miss forward pack. Nothing's tight and controlled.

Ewen better get cracking, tightning up foward play and possession and looking more closely at his selections.

And Cooper is a kook and must go - go and play fucking touch football.
 

hughbert

Herbert Moran (7)
Cooper's jiggy jig shit at the defensive line was found out at test level about 3 years ago. Can someone please inform him of this?
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Sorry IS. I understand your confusion. I am not trying to describe how the Wallabies are playing - I guess I am trying to explain what I believe McKenzie's approach is.

I am also trying to explain that I don't think we can revert to picking players solely on set peice ability at the expense of the rest of the game. I'm not trying to understate the importance of set peice - and I sure as hell wish ours were a lot better.

I was being a little mischievous - and it was my way of saying we are not playing well in any department up front.
How long since the Honey Badger played a proper game? He looked more rusty that my stationary bike.
I think we have to take a longer term view which, in my opinion, means reverting to a very simple structure of gain line rugby from a sound set piece platform. So I differ from you in that I think we have to get the set piece right.
My underlying concern, however, is that I wonder if we actually have options in that regard. I don't pay enough attention during s15 to know if we have any better scrummagers - I thought Sio would go OK but he seemed to cough up a couple of penalties for not packing straight last night.
I think the cupboard is pretty bare. Is Robinson an answer? - didn't he have the most turnovers in s15 so he may not be such a huge compromise if its thought he can rectify some of the scrummaging issues?
If there are fat blokes who can scrummage I say pick them and we'll worry about the other stuff when that's sorted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TSR

tekay

Peter Burge (5)
Against a massive pack like the Saffies all the more reason our forwards need to be really tight, fast and hunt as a pack. Don't think it'll be any easier against the Pumas either unless we really tighten it all up.

Definitely tricky though when we're really lacking a bit in physical presence but getting to the breakdown quicker could nullify that somewhat. Too often the Wobs were getting isolated and forward support was too slow to react.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
And Cooper is a kook and must go - go and play fucking touch football.

Yeh fuck Quade. He's so shit. He can't pass, he can't tackle, he can't kick, he can't step, he can't run at the line, he can't run backline moves, he can't even take a hit and go to ground. What a fuckwit. He should just leave because he's a shit flyhalf who never does anything good and never gets his outside backs over the advantage line. What a kook!!

You could have jesus at 10, Moses at 12 and the prophet Muhammed at 15, it wouldn't make a difference to what happened last night. Please keep the unjustified and unwarranted claims to yourself. At least describe what he did wrong.
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
Often the best scrummagers are hidden away in subbies and country clubs, never noticed now in the professional era. What the ARU needs to do is invite all props from around the country under 25 and of a minimum physical requisite to attend an academy every weekend for the next 6 months. At the end of the process 3 tight heads and 2 loose heads are selected and dispersed one each amongst the super franchises. Opportunity of a lifetime is the carrot.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I would just add the lack of focus on the technical stuff like height at the breakdown and working as a team at scrum time

Sent from a tiny evil keyboard

Yes. Chronic skill and mindset deficiencies that will NOT be cured by 'flavour of the week' selection shuffling on to the next 'much better' player. But the good news is that with the right improvement in the educational process via superior scrum and breakdown coaching, the Wallabies can improve just as other elite teams have via such methods.

On a similar plane, do we call how Phil Blake greatly improved Wallaby defence in the 2010-2011 period? The ARU/Nucifora then proceeded to sack him in early 2012 for his efforts.

Is it not utterly clear (from at least 2013's data) that Blades is totally out of his depth coaching set pieces, and that under Scrivener Wallaby defence and defensive structures have massively deteriorated?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
 

light

Peter Fenwicke (45)
The things Ewen would do to have Pocock and Higgenbotham back right now.

We lost this game on physicality.
At present, there is no mongrel in the wallabies pack capable of dominating the breakdown and asserting a physical presence. Not one of those blokes out there showed any of the aggression or passion required to compete against the South African monster pack, similar to the last two games against NZ.

I'm not saying the guys didn't play with pride or enthusiasm, but they were completely ineffective and rarely created any opportunity for our backs to go forward. Not sure what the solution is just yet but there needs to be some immediate changes until we get our key forwards back. Give blokes like Pyle, Gill, Jones, Carter and Sio a go.


Although we lost comprehensively, it was due largely in part to how well the Boks played. They were outstanding. We are essentially playing with a second string back row and without a captain. Add KB (Kurtley Beale) and Speight and you have missing pieces in the back line too.

It is not all doom and gloom yet, but there is an alarming gulf in class between our world XV players and the rest of the bunch.
 

something

Jim Clark (26)
It has got to be a mental thing. The players are pretty decent (maybe not the tight 5, but what can you do... theyre our best) but just as a whole, they play like shit. no confidence in each other and no confidence in the team. its like they play expecting to lose.
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
I totally agree with everything you said. Quade, in my opinion was one of the better players in the backline. I would continue to pick him over To'omua until To'omua gets more experience at test level

Errrrrrr....... so how exactly does To'omua get Test experience if you keep picking Quade??
 

something

Jim Clark (26)
It is not all doom and gloom yet, but there is an alarming gulf in class between our world XV players and the rest of the bunch.


do we have world xv players right now? i dont think any of them are the best in the world in there position... at all

Did u see A.smith v the Pumas. just immense - better than ive seen Genia play for over a year
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top