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Australia vs British and Irish Lions 2nd Test (Melbourne)

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Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Why do we care what the fuck is working 'over the ditch'?

We need to pick a team that plays to our strengths. Which at the moment is creativity in attack. Lilo and KB (Kurtley Beale) can come into the line from time to time and take the pressure off JOC (James O'Connor), as well as keep the oppo backline guessing about where the ball is going.

Last night was the first hitout with this 9-10-12-15 combo, and I thought it showed some good signs (we beat the Lions FFS!). With more time I can see it becoming a real force.
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Bah GOB SMACKED creativity in attack, we haven't shown that for the last 2 years.
You maybe right about first time combos, per selection most of the forum was talking about the importance of combos.
Alas Deans has had an impact on both accounts.

A positive was our defence, missed tackles low, and I can't recall us opening up.
 

Sandpit Fan

Nev Cottrell (35)
On to facts - one team played most of the rugby in this game - once the Lions tried their first few mauls and got change in penalties, they ceased to try any semblance of attack, preferring to defend their lead and try to pin us back like they did in the first half, waiting to score in threes. The stats bear this out on any website you'd care to look at.

Three times as many running metres. Twice as many carries and passes. 4 line breaks to zero. Three times as many offloads - but some of the offload attempts turned into lost ball. 21 turnovers to 15 is what killed us.
To say that Sexton had great impact on the game than JOC (James O'Connor) is a fucking nonsense that not even Eddie Jones could invent. Anyone supporting that argument is deluded. JOC (James O'Connor) grew into that game as our quality of ball and continuity increased.


Exactly right. Some world class moaning going on here. I mean, how bad would be the bitching be if we'd lost? A man would need earplugs.

Even most of the one eyed pommie papers are saying the Wallabies played all the rugby, surely it's not too much of a stretch to give the blokes who actually won the game some credit.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Picking a guy who's strengths is his footwork and 1 v 1 situations at 10 isn't playing to our strengths.
Agree, I think JOC (James O'Connor) at 13 for this reason.
QC (Quade Cooper)'s vision, and passing skills could create havoc out wider with these skills. Then with Izy, or the fullback in support we could attack a lot wider.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Interesting observation........

Early in the game with the Lions having a scrum in their own 22m the Wallaby backline was positioned as such:

10. Lilo
12. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
13. JOC (James O'Connor)
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Comparing To'omua to JOC (James O'Connor) is an insult on the young Brumby playmaker. To'omua has a complete skill-set, James hasn't been taking the ball to the line and drawing a player at all. To'omua loves to actually hit the defensive line and then pass. James was too hesitant in attack and reverted back to Barnes and stood 15 metres behind the game line. He shovels shit to Lilo or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) allowing the Lions defence to simply drift across. More importantly, James isn't directing the back line, he's more concerned about running the ball.

Last night he had Beale doing all the free-kicks, most of the clearance kicks and Lilo doing the spot kicks. Essentially more pressure was taken off him to concentrate on getting that back line going. Bar that crap line by Izzy, all our set pieces from the backs was to pass the ball through hands to a guy standing 2 metres away from him.

Oh fuck, it's a wonder we scored a point at all with such a hopeless 10.

I can argue this all day, but this is taking things a bit far.
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Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Anyways, RE: JOC (James O'Connor)........

I can understand why Deans has gambled with him at 10........

He's been a wonderful player in the past and his ability to just about slot in anywhere means that we can field better specialist players around the field....... and going into the Lions series, outside of Cooper (who I would also not pick) there's not a lot of test experienced playmakers.........

But I just can't see it working, and it's not just off the back of two games for the Wobs but also because he hasn't looked the least bit impressive in all the games he's played flyhalf for the Rebels........ and they've actually been better without him there........

So, unless he completely blows everyone's mind in the third test the experiment needs to be scrapped for the Rugby Championship..........

Right now there is a strong whiff of Giteau about him........
 

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
Oh fuck, it's a wonder we scored a point at all with such a hopeless 10.

No, you're making him out to be doing a solid job. Where from last nights performance, he should only be accountable for two things, a dropped ball and kicking the ball out on the full.

Prior to the tour, he's been talking it up how it wants to lead the Wallabies attack, but so far he ain't backing it up. It stems from his inexperience in the position.

The one time he actually played like a fly half, we scored off it. So the arm chair pundits are spitting chips at what we could have done if there was a proper fly half there for 80 minutes.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
You don't get to play "I told you so" when they win.

You can't compare this to the Tahs, who were playing in a comp where 4 try bonus points were the aim of most teams but the Tahs.

The Tahs weren't playing sides with this sort of intensity or line speed.
They are a side that will concede a penalty rather than give you a sniff of an opportunity to score a try.

Their game philosophy is to do anything to stop a try, they will win the game on penalties.

Do I think JOC (James O'Connor) is a great 10? No
Any other options also have huge downsides.
No matter who he picks at 10, the majority would prefer someone else.

You miss the entire point of my post. It isn't at all about the result its about the method used. And that was the point about the Tahs posts for three or more years as well, and funnily enough what came out at the fan forum as well.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
As I said cogent arguments. You do yourself a dis-service.

The Brumbies do not play a risk free game plan. They are more a traditional conservative game plan, and one that relies heavily on accurate execution of kicking from hand. That is a big contrast to the Wallabies and the Tahs under Hickey/Foley.

Agreed, the Tahs didn't do it well, but that is about effectiveness of execution, not the actual game plan
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
The Brumbies wingers have scored more tries than the Reds, the team has scored more tries than the Reds, they have scored 120 odd points more than the reds, have more bonus points than the Reds and Genia and Cooper have kicked more than their brumbies equivalents. Objectively it would seem they are not just grinding.


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absolutely

It was in no way was it meant as a negative comment

They do it really, really well, and that "grinding" is why their wingers are scoring those tries, and why they beat the Lions.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Pfitzy - I won't both trying to explain my position to you. You constantly deride through use of sarcasm, invective and other highly evolved debating methods any contrary point of view.

However, for the sake of completeness, I did not forget that the Mackenzie plan at the Tahs was very limited. Indeed if you had done a modicum of research on my posts on the Tahs subject you will see a length submission that was very critical of his time at the Tahs regardless of his results being far better than any other Tahs coach except Macqueen. Indeed the piece asked whether the prevailing political culture at the Tahs created an environment where the coaches were forced into a percentage type rugby plan to ensure their own year to year survival. The same thing could be seen at the Wallabies Level with the massive change in approach that Deans undertook (and continues) just prior to the RWC 2011.

Mackenzie did not play a 10 man game at all. He played a conservative game with some flaws because he didn't have a dominant kicker at 10, floating between Hangers and even Tim Donnelly. As for nobody cared about it, well obviously they did because Mackenzie didn't get his contract renewed, and then Hickey likewise and Foley was sacked all while the crowds dwindled. They didn't dwindle because they lost indeed the Tahs lost as many and in some cases more games this year but crowds have been better! I won't even bother to discuss your personal comments about Foley.

Finally I do think the mode of play matters in this series, win or lose. This is the biggest advertisement for the Wallabies since the 2003 RWC. It matters how the game is presented and I don't think that anybody who is not a Rugby fanatic would be engaged by the games we have seen. they were gripping for the passion and intensity and closeness of the scoreline, but certainly not for the quality of the play.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Agreed, the Tahs didn't do it well, but that is about effectiveness of execution, not the actual game plan

A poor plan perfectly executed may well succeed against a poor opposition or one on an off day. A great plan badly executed may well get the same results. There is also the variable of selection of players with the correct skill sets to execute said plan. Without going to far into it the Tahs pre-Chieka were a side built to execute the plan, and this Wallabies side is also such. It is why even if Lilo, JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale were injured Cooper would not be selected, and rightly so. His skill set is not suited to this style of game in the slightest. The Wallabies side that has been selected is perhaps the best that could be picked to execute what we are seeing.

My arguments about the Wallabies are very similar to what I argued for the Tahs for the last X years. Execution was always a problem at the Tahs as well, perhaps because when playing such a percentage based game the margins for error are cut exceedingly fine, and this is perhaps a further reason why the Wallabies do not push anything, being directed to make zero errors.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
Disagree. I thought Moore was quiet last night, and also made three silly errors in the first half.

Lineout throwing was good but it was no more than a 6/10 game IMO.
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Strong line out, strong scrum. Both aspects of the game he had a pivotal role in. I thought he ran and tackled well, although the errors were bad. For me, most of the forwards were solid to good without being great. I haven't watched a replay yet, though, so I might change my mind on second viewing.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Umm - because it is working and it has worked and, frankly, it seldom fails.
Also because our greatest successes have come when we play in that style.



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And if the NZRU are watching the Wallabies, they possess a smile of self-satisfaction, having been proven correct in their coaching appointments (and non-appointments).
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Interesting observation....

Early in the game with the Lions having a scrum in their own 22m the Wallaby backline was positioned as such:

10. Lilo
12. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
13. JOC (James O'Connor)

Not enough game time this year at 10 and combinations, what about
QC (Quade Cooper) (Gen combo) or To'omua (Lilo combo) at 10, and
Lilo keeps 12
JOC (James O'Connor) 13

and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the bench or wing, tuff call but either works for me as we'd have a specialist 10
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
Wonderful tense game. There may have been a bit of dropped ball but was just so happy to get the win. Poor old Vunipola is surely on the pine next week. The better half thought she could see my hair greying in front of her eyes. Roll on Sydney.
Vunipola didn't seem to get much reassuring support from his team mates during his horror scrum period. I saw only his hooker pat him quickly on the shoulder to encourage him.
He's only 22 and he must have felt mighty lonely out there at times.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I fully expect Deans to keep exactly the same backline in exactly the same positions. And having criticised him and others for constantly shuffling players around the backline, I think it's the best option at this point. I really don't think moving people around or in and out is going to achieve anything in 6 days. While long term there may or may not be better options, short term the negatives would probably outweigh any positives.

They spent 3 weeks in camp preparing and the past 2 weeks in game mode. I assume that most of their training has revolved around the positions that they now occupy, I think we just have to back the guys who are there.
 
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