• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

Australia vs British and Irish Lions 2nd Test (Melbourne)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
With all the debate around the backline selections for the Wallabies, in Australia we have largely neglected discussing the selections for the BIL. With the injury to Roberts and Tuilagi, Gatland was forced into selecting Davies at 12. IMO this just hasn't worked and has had much the same effect on the backline for the BIL as the selection of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in the same position did.

If Roberts is fit next week I would expect a much different execution of the Lions game plan. If he isn't and Tuilagi is fit I think Gatland should look to have him there instead of Davies.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I don't think it was a clear opportunity for the outside backs.

Nor do I.
JOC (James O'Connor) should never have been the one to straighten/crash it.
Its a cardinal error for a 10 to run a play that sees him inevitably finish on the bottom of a ruck. And I'm not saying he should never finish on the bottom of the ruck only that he should never really run an attacking play the only outcome of which will be for him to be on the bottom of a ruck. There are presently irrelevant exceptions.
The fact he did is not just down to him: I dont think any of them have a clear idea of how they're going to get this, effectively turnover, ball wide quickly but with control.
If it had been the AB's DC would have handed off to Nonu, Reid and 2 others would have had quick clean out and DC would have flung it wide to Smith with Dagg either inside or out and the 6, 4 and 5 in close support.
Almost the exact opposite of what happened last night.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Nor do I.
JOC (James O'Connor) should never have been the one to straighten/crash it.
Its a cardinal error for a 10 to run a play that sees him inevitably finish on the bottom of a ruck. And I'm not saying he should never finish on the bottom of the ruck only that he should never really run an attacking play the only outcome of which will be for him to be on the bottom of a ruck. There are presently irrelevant exceptions.
The fact he did is not just down to him: I dont think any of them have a clear idea of how they're going to get this, effectively turnover, ball wide quickly but with control.
If it had been the AB's DC would have handed off to Nonu, Reid and 2 others would have had quick clean out and DC would have flung it wide to Smith with Dagg either inside or out and the 6, 4 and 5 in close support.
Almost the exact opposite of what happened last night.

I think that's a simplistic view of things.

The fact is that we have Lilo AND Beale who can assume the role of playmaker and do it bloody well.

I think you are operating on a slightly antiquated view of what a 10 should be. JOC (James O'Connor) isn't Carter. Playing outside Genia and inside Lilo and Beale he doesn't need to be.
.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I think you are operating on a slightly antiquated view of what a 10 should be. JOC (James O'Connor) isn't Carter. Playing outside Genia and inside Lilo and Beale he doesn't need to be.
.

Well its working over the ditch and always has so I'll take your condescending "antiquated'.
If you think that Lilo or KB (Kurtley Beale) can run a game as well as JOC (James O'Connor) then clearly JOC (James O'Connor) should not be the 10.
Lilo could never have been the 1st receiver on that play because he had to go in to win the ball that JOC (James O'Connor) took to the bottom of the ruck so far from any other support. Having just had another look at it, it is more than a stretch to suggest JOC (James O'Connor) "straightened" the attack, besides which BILs were not moving up giving him hours to decide what to do.
So you finish up with KB (Kurtley Beale) who's only option was to throw the long ball because the angle JOC (James O'Connor) ran had enabled all the BIL outside backs to number up.
On seeing it again its worse than I thought.
 

Pete King

Phil Hardcastle (33)
That wasn't JOC (James O'Connor)'s fault as I saw it. Folau didn't run the correct line. The pass was in the right spot, Folau was not.
A natural 5/8 would have seen that the play wasn't on. There was literally no space whatever line Izzy ran. Is a injustice to Oconnor that he was picked their for this series. He is undoubtably a gifted footballer but not a 5/8.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Well it is interesting to see mostly the same pundits trotting out the same defences for Deans risk free tactics as they trotted out in support of the Hickey and Foley plan at the Tahs. I argued strongly against it then that it would indeed grind out some close fought victories and just as many close fought losses with a few inexplicable capitulations thrown in. They never sought to dominate and dictate the play and this Wallabies set up doesn't either. This win as the loss was last week is down to the high quality of the players and their absolute commitment. As with the Tahs such wins and losses are just not enough.

We have seen that the ARU is dying the death of a thousand cuts financially, they cannot afford to continue to play this dire imagination-less game that appeals to a very narrow blind portion of the Rugby community. It doesn't do anything to attract new followers to the game. Do not let the overwhelming atmosphere and crowds of these once in a decade games distract from the fact that apart from Bledisloe the Wallabies haven't sold out a stadium in Australia for some time.

Just as with the Tahs my three year argument regarding their dire play and the need to be more adventurous and complete with their style of play has been proved correct, I believe totally that this will also be the case with the Wallabies. I hope it isn't too late for so many of what I see as perhaps the most talented generation of players since 1989-1994.

You don't get to play "I told you so" when they win.

You can't compare this to the Tahs, who were playing in a comp where 4 try bonus points were the aim of most teams but the Tahs.

The Tahs weren't playing sides with this sort of intensity or line speed.
They are a side that will concede a penalty rather than give you a sniff of an opportunity to score a try.

Their game philosophy is to do anything to stop a try, they will win the game on penalties.

Do I think JOC (James O'Connor) is a great 10? No
Any other options also have huge downsides.
No matter who he picks at 10, the majority would prefer someone else.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
A natural 5/8 would have seen that the play wasn't on. There was literally no space whatever line Izzy ran. Is a injustice to Oconnor that he was picked their for this series. He is undoubtably a gifted footballer but not a 5/8.

The other problem with that play was that it wasted a 40m "blind side" by trying to cram another winger into the open side.
Surely 1 advantage of having 3 blokes with claims to being a 10 is that you can setup so its unclear who is to be the first receiver and on which side?
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Hickey and Foley plan at the Tahs.

How conveniently you forget that it was almost identical to the McKenzie plan at the Tahs. He practically began the whole trend. And please, don't wank on about a particular move our philosophy that proves where Link was different. I know he said almost the same thing to journos that Hickey did: we are playing the game we can.

He played a ten man game at NSW because those were the cattle he had. No one gave a fuck then because they won more than they lost and made finals. He plays a different game at Queensland because he has different cattle.

The problem Hickey had is that people became disillusioned with it by then because the shine was coming off i.e. he was losing. Foley was just shit and nobody liked the bloke.


I argued strongly against it then that it would indeed grind out some close fought victories and just as many close fought losses with a few inexplicable capitulations thrown in. They never sought to dominate and dictate the play and this Wallabies set up doesn't either.

You don't actually make any sense. We have had this conversation before, but do you honestly think that - in this series, after these two close and thrilling games - the public cares what style we play as long as we win?

You're constantly calling for us to play exciting rugby, when it's just not warranted in certain instances. You drone and blare and gargle on about what it's doing to the finances when all that matters next Saturday to the ARU coffers is that they sold out the stadium and that the team wins. In a thriller preferably, but they'd take a thrashing of the men in red just as well.

The fact is we HAVE played some exciting rugby. We've thrown it wide, busted it up in close, scrummed it, mauled it, and done basically everything there is in the game to take victory. But you're still not happy.

It's no surprise. You're basically a Quade apologist and a retcon specialist.

-----------------------
I hate autocorrect ...
 

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
I think that's a simplistic view of things.

The fact is that we have Lilo AND Beale who can assume the role of playmaker and do it bloody well.

I think you are operating on a slightly antiquated view of what a 10 should be. JOC (James O'Connor) isn't Carter. Playing outside Genia and inside Lilo and Beale he doesn't need to be.
.


If we've got two guys doing most of the work, why aren't they being picked with the 10 on their back instead?

Currently we have a guy who stands way too deep to receive the ball which stuffs up our ability to get back to the line and an inability to draw a defender then pass.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Do I think JOC (James O'Connor) is a great 10? No
Any other options also have huge downsides.
No matter who he picks at 10, the majority would prefer someone else.
And this is the result of dire coaching at NSW, other states & Australia in terms of backline play (not including Waratahs 2013) over the past 5 years or so. This is the consequence of the constant shuffling and movement of backs in and out of teams and in different positions (sometimes on a weekly basis) by coaches.

I have a lot of time for Tumoua and Foley, but they need more experience. If JOC (James O'Connor) had spent the last 3 seasons playing 5/8, he would quite possibly be the answer. We have in this country immensly talented backs who, in my humble opinion, have not been well served by many of our coaches.

You are correct - except for the diehard QC (Quade Cooper) fans, there is simply no stand out 5/8 for the Wallabies.
 

Athilnaur

Arch Winning (36)
N
Its a cardinal error for a 10 to run a play that sees him inevitably finish on the bottom of a ruck.

For me this sentence encapsulates the biggest issue with O'Connor. But I think it also brings opportunity when you get it right. On multiple occasions O'Connor drew defenders and got the ball away with short passes. And while he is a long ways from being a definitive ten I think he is learning very fast.

If I had a complaint about our playmaker system last night it was that Beale didn't come in to create options enough.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
If we've got two guys doing most of the work, why aren't they being picked with the 10 on their back instead?

Currently we have a guy who stands way too deep to receive the ball which stuffs up our ability to get back to the line and an inability to draw a defender then pass.

But they are not doing 'most of the work'.

JOC (James O'Connor) is playing a game similar to what To'omua does at the Brumbies. Can take the ball to the line, but also knows when it is the time to not fuck around and get the ball into the hands of the creative guns outside him.
.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Well its working over the ditch and always has so I'll take your condescending "antiquated'.

Why do we care what the fuck is working 'over the ditch'?

We need to pick a team that plays to our strengths. Which at the moment is creativity in attack. Lilo and KB (Kurtley Beale) can come into the line from time to time and take the pressure off JOC (James O'Connor), as well as keep the oppo backline guessing about where the ball is going.

Last night was the first hitout with this 9-10-12-15 combo, and I thought it showed some good signs (we beat the Lions FFS!). With more time I can see it becoming a real force.
.
 

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
But they are not doing 'most of the work'.

JOC (James O'Connor) is playing a game similar to what To'omua does at the Brumbies. Can take the ball to the line, but also knows when it is the time to not fuck around and get the ball into the hands of the creative guns outside him.
.


Comparing To'omua to JOC (James O'Connor) is an insult on the young Brumby playmaker. To'omua has a complete skill-set, James hasn't been taking the ball to the line and drawing a player at all. To'omua loves to actually hit the defensive line and then pass. James was too hesitant in attack and reverted back to Barnes and stood 15 metres behind the game line. He shovels shit to Lilo or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) allowing the Lions defence to simply drift across. More importantly, James isn't directing the back line, he's more concerned about running the ball.

Last night he had Beale doing all the free-kicks, most of the clearance kicks and Lilo doing the spot kicks. Essentially more pressure was taken off him to concentrate on getting that back line going. Bar that crap line by Izzy, all our set pieces from the backs was to pass the ball through hands to a guy standing 2 metres away from him.
 

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
We need to pick a team that plays to our strengths. Which at the moment is creativity in attack. Lilo and KB (Kurtley Beale) can come into the line from time to time and take the pressure off JOC (James O'Connor), as well as keep the oppo backline guessing about where the ball is going.


Picking a guy who's strengths is his footwork and 1 v 1 situations at 10 isn't playing to our strengths.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
367_dsc_6944_2013_06_29_2792-jpg.3859.jpg

Shortly after this photo was taken, George North seems to end up being lifted above the horizontal and driven head first into the ground in a most unusual manner.

George clearly brought Izzy back the the ground safely after lifting him above the horizontal. Did the same happen to George, and will the IRB be seeking to cite Izzy?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top