Australia v New Zealand - Sydney 16 Aug

[KOB1987]

If I was trying to squeeze Foley, Beale and To'omua into the starting side it would probably be Foley that I'd play on the wing rather than Beale.

This is where I'm getting misinterpreted a bit..I'm not actually trying to squeeze them all in to the starting side..my argument is that at test level and as we head towards the World Cup, the wing (or back 3 in general) is possibly where Beale's talents may be best exploited. And no time like the present with a vacant wing spot..

 

[Train Without a Station]

Yet despite the fact that Waratahs have not had many wingers, and Beale nat having played much 12 the thought never occurred to Cheika to try it.

 

[KOB1987]

1) Horne, Alofa, Betham, Crawford, etc kinda qualify as wingers, and 2) he defends there for the Tahs..not because he is a poor defender but because he defends better in cover than head on, and having him hanging out the back with Folau makes the opposition think twice about where their kick is going to land.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Horne is not a winger. He is a centre playing on the wing. The other 3 have been injured throughout the year.

And he defends there because he is a poor defender. You are the only person who would argue this here.

 

[KOB1987]

Look TWAS, I'll concede that it's probably not going to happen on Saturday week, but it's my point of view that it's not a bad option, and particularly if QC (Quade Cooper) returns in good form, and Foley stays solid, I think it will happen at some point.

 

[KOB1987]

Oh, so centres playing on the wing for their country is reserved for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Horne and the likes of Little? and is a poor defender head on in the channel..

 

[Braveheart81]

I think we need to move on. I don't think you're going to get much support thinking Beale should play on the wing.

The Tahs improved greatly when Horne was brought into the side and started defending at 12 to take the brunt of the hits.

The Brumbies punished the Tahs in about round 3 when Beale was defending at 12 because McCabe made metres on him all day. For the rest of the season, the Tahs benefited greatly because we got the best out of Beale in attack and really didn't suffer his relative weakness in defence.

Beale is one of the best attacking rugby players in the country but his defence is a weakness. It's a fact of life really. The same can be said for most of the best playmakers in world rugby.

Cooper improved his defence greatly in 2013 and 2014 but tackling was his Achilles heel as well. He is unlikely to be helped by the fact that he has had to have a shoulder surgery this year.

Beale is not helped by the fact that he's had shoulder surgery and continues to have problems with his shoulders.

 

[Scrubber2050]

But Beale HAS TO START dammit Slim!

TWAS - very unlikely at least in first game. Beale's second game chances are purely dependant on 2 things - whether the team wins AND how the others perform.

 

[Braveheart81]

TWAS - very unlikely at least in first game. Beale's second game chances are purely dependant on 2 things - whether the team wins AND how the others perform.

Sarcasm missed.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Point taken - always did and still do play what's in front of me

 

[Hawko]

Horne is not a winger. He is a centre playing on the wing. The other 3 have been injured throughout the year.

And he defends there because he is a poor defender. You are the only person who would argue this here.

He's not the only person here who would argue that! All year for the Waratahs he has played second fullback when on defence and second five on attack. In the final I remember him fielding a couple of kicks and then running at pace to bring the ball back up and kickstart an attack. That's what he did all season; that was his role in the team and it worked a treat.

Just as it was when people were criticising Cooper when playing second fullback for the Reds under Link, people just cannot get the idea that he was better positioned for the team there on defence.

Most people have this mantra that says this is where they play because neither can tackle. Well now that Cooper plays 10 when not injured and he stays up in the line on defence, how does that play out? His defence has improved, probably to Beale's level, but neither defend like Horne or de Villiers.

Beale has excellent credentials for a winger. He is very fast over 100m, his 10m acceleration is probably better than Izzy's, he is very evasive and he's not a ball hog. He has the best support play of any Australian player. He started his Wallaby career at 14 and killed it there. As a straight out winger only Speight has more credentials.

He plays at 10/12 because of his creativity - the ability to put others through gaps, the ability to loop and back up. Along with Cooper, To'omua and Folau he is part of a golden generation to rival NFJ, Lynagh, Horan, Tune. What they all have in common is the ability to do something very special that others just can't do.

 

[KOB1987]

off to Bathurst, will report back tonight if I pick up any clues..

 

[Tip]

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) will remain on the Wing for the rest of the year. It's sad, but it's what is best for the Wallabies.

Australia's current back 3 players: Folau, Horne, McCabe, Kuridrani, Tomane, Speight & AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

What separates AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) from every single one of them is his kicking game. Without AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the wing we rely solely on Folau to control field position & kick returns from fullback.

I definitely wouldn't risk it.

 

[Train Without a Station]

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) seems to chase kicks with greater enthusiasm than any other wingers also. I always found it odd because if anything I'd expect his attitude to be a little off due to being displaced despite playing well at 13.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It's really dawned on me over the last 12 months what a tremendous (and underrated) player AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is. He's the consummate team man, does his job effectively and is possibly one of the most reliable players we've had in over a decade. His versatility is a great boon to the team and we're very lucky to have that.

I'd prefer to see him at 13, because I think it's his best position. However, we're short on depth in the wing spots so he needs to play there for now. That's pretty much the end of it. I'm certainly not in favour of wholesale shuffling of the back line to accommodate this or that player. The combinations that we've been running out since the EOYT in 2013 are really developing into something special, so I'm inclined to let them develop.

 

[Tomikin]

Yes, give me a 120kg Kurtley Beale and a 90kg one and I'll pick the former one any day.

That's not what you said though..you are suggesting that an out of form player who is big is more penetrative and imposing than an in form player who is smaller.

Who's out of form?

 

[BDA]

I think I agree with your post Brown Hornet.

It seems like McKenzie's main dilemma is whether to go with the Tahs' backline (Phipps/Beale/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)) or whether to keep the established combinations (White/To'omua/Kuridrani). If we lose, people are always going to criticise him for doing one and not the other.

I'd stick with the established combinations for a few reasons. The To'omua/Kuridrani combo did well against the All Blacks last year. Defensively To'omua will do a much better job of shutting down Nonu than Beale would. If Beale starts at 12 the All Blacks will look at it as a potential defensive weakness and will probably run at him pretty regularly. The Blacks will exploit any weakness and I think with To'omua there it will be harder for the Blacks to break the line. Also I like to idea of Beale coming off the bench, once the game has lost its edge in the second half. He seems to be very effective in that role; a role that I'm not sure To'omua suits. easy choice from where I'm sitting

The Kuridrani/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) choice is a bit tougher. If we had the likes of JOC (James O'Connor) and Speight on the wings, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) might be a better choice but I don't think you lose anything by playing him on the wing, in the circumstances. Also under Link, Kuridrani appears to have an important role, namely to hit the ball up and move over the advantage line if nothing is on. His extra size comes in handy for that role.

If things aren't working in the first half, by all means changes things up in the second half.

 

[Pfitzy]

It's really dawned on me over the last 12 months what a tremendous (and underrated) player AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is. He's the consummate team man, does his job effectively and is possibly one of the most reliable players we've had in over a decade. His versatility is a great boon to the team and we're very lucky to have that.

The kiwis can't understand why we don't pick him in his best position. He makes them very wary playing at 13 because they've seen the damage he can do.

 

[Tomikin]

This is where I'm getting misinterpreted a bit..I'm not actually trying to squeeze them all in to the starting side..my argument is that at test level and as we head towards the World Cup, the wing (or back 3 in general) is possibly where Beale's talents may be best exploited. And no time like the present with a vacant wing spot..

We would then have to carry Kirindrani on the bench as if AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) gets injured no one else is a test level 13.. And this seriously weakens the bench impact.

 

[Viking]

Since the weekend I have joined the 'AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to start at 13' bandwagon because he's on fire and Kuridrani is not at his best (not poor, but below par for him).

Kuridrani had a slow season but his game in the semi against the Tahs was great. Consistently over the gain-line, key defensive reads, and some great big hits. In fact, dare i say, I think he outplayed AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in that game. So I would say his form is getting back to his best. A final's game is always a good gauge (well at least the best measure we have) of a players form coming into Test rugby.

Although I agree AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s form in the grand final and his consistently good season puts him in the number one 13 spot, but injuries & ineligibility mean It also puts him in the number one spot for the wing.

So for me it comes down to Kuridrani or Horne. You'd give it to Kuridrani for being the incumbent and having a good combination with his 12.