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Australia v Italy, Suncorp Stadium, 24th June 2017 @ 3:00pm

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Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
At the risk of being accused of being a Tahs sympathizer and upsetting the brumbies ones - TK hasn't just been 'a little soft' this series, he's been shit. Best remedy for that is the drop.

Horne might turn out to be more shit but at the end of the day he's safe and he's just a fill gap. I don't mind BRs much touted solution of playing Hodge at 13, but only as a contingency. Outside that there aren't many viable options.

Thus, whilst not wrapped in it, I can understand the selection.

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I can't.

He refused to pick the guy who was, by a country mile, the best 6 for a green 20 year old with potential who looks so out of his depth it's worrying. The reason apparently is that the best 6 is heading overseas.

Meanwhile, he chooses a 13 who was, at best, 4th best outside centre. Rona was better yet doesn't selected, you could even make a case for English. None of these guys are going overseas.

We'd benefit so much more with Fardy working with Hanigan in the squad.

Horne, quite literally, gives us nothing.

The inconsistency / cognitive dissonance is amazing, and so depressing.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I can't.

He refused to pick the guy who was, by a country mile, the best 6 for a green 20 year old with potential who looks so out of his depth it's worrying. The reason apparently is that the best 6 is heading overseas.

Meanwhile, he chooses a 13 who was, at best, 4th best outside centre. Rona was better yet doesn't selected, you could even make a case for English. None of these guys are going overseas.

We'd benefit so much more with Fardy working with Hanigan in the squad.

Horne, quite literally, gives us nothing.

The inconsistency / cognitive dissonance is amazing, and so depressing.

The echoes from, and perhaps ghost of, R Deans in his most baffling selections days, returns.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Being a Brisbane game its curious that a couple of QLDers were dropped.

Yes, and apparently Chek's invitation to J Thurston around 11pm last night to come on over (just for a day) and take on the place kicking duties v Italy has been unceremoniously rebuffed.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Yes, and apparently Chek's invitation to J Thurston around 11pm last night to come on over (just for a day) and take on the place kicking duties v Italy has been unceremoniously rebuffed.


Well, he's only got one arm according to the NRL press :rolleyes:
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Well, he's only got one arm according to the NRL press :rolleyes:

Yeah, though he still knocks 'em over.

(Btw and sorry to deflect, but has anyone _ever_ seen a place kicking style and ball-off-boot curvature that looks like a big miss and yet beautifully, weirdly curves back in like that of JT's?)
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
I can't.

He refused to pick the guy who was, by a country mile, the best 6 for a green 20 year old with potential who looks so out of his depth it's worrying. The reason apparently is that the best 6 is heading overseas.

Meanwhile, he chooses a 13 who was, at best, 4th best outside centre. Rona was better yet doesn't selected, you could even make a case for English. None of these guys are going overseas.

We'd benefit so much more with Fardy working with Hanigan in the squad.

Horne, quite literally, gives us nothing.

The inconsistency / cognitive dissonance is amazing, and so depressing.
Hmmmm, can get on board with the sentiment but not the logic.

You'll recall that neither fardy nor Horne were in the original squad on the basis of not being starters (and quite obviously because they were deserting). Kerevi then gets injured and Horne gets called up much to the frustration of meakes, Rona, etc supporters. The reason was though that he needed a ready made sub for TK. Rightly or wrongly he wanted an experienced player for that role, not a cleanskin.

Meanwhile, those advocating fardy's selection are crying double standards. The reality is that if an experienced back rower went down fardy would have been the first call up. Didn't happen. Period.


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RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Hmmmm, can get on board with the sentiment but not the logic.

You'll recall that neither fardy nor Horne were in the original squad on the basis of not being starters (and quite obviously because they were deserting). Kerevi then gets injured and Horne gets called up much to the frustration of meakes, Rona, etc supporters. The reason was though that he needed a ready made sub for TK. Rightly or wrongly he wanted an experienced player for that role, not a cleanskin.

Meanwhile, those advocating fardy's selection are crying double standards. The reality is that if an experienced back rower went down fardy would have been the first call up. Didn't happen. Period.


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[WARNING TO MODS - THIS IS ONLY VERY TANGENTIALLY A COACHING-RELATED POST - IT IS MOSTLY RE SELECTIONS VS ITALY SO WILL I HOPE GIVE ME BONUS LIKES UNDER AVATAR PLEASE AS I DEARLY WANT 5,000 ASAP.)

Hang on a minute.

We heard pre this series of June Tests from Chek that this was the time to (paraphrasing) do a big, RWC-2019-focussed refresh of the squad and Test-trial numerous less experienced players.

Perhaps bar Japan (?) Italy are by far the weakest/least-threat team we will face all of 2017. Especially at Suncorp/home.

Is this not the logical time - if TK is injured or out of favour - to try a cleanskin or close at 13 vs a player off o/s and who's unlikely to start in gold for many years to come (if ever). Is the risk re Italy so real that 'long experience at 13' is a rationally well-grounded must?

OK a clean skin like B Meakes or I Perese has risks and were not in camp (but could have come in a week ago say) but are they going to somehow through multiple serious fuck-ups cause a loss to a very green Italy team?

I don't think so, and the pluses/longer term ROI in trying them (or a selection like them) out in gold v a weak Test team surely exceeds the gain to be had from a Horne in that slot?

(I will be yelled down, but I feel the same way re giving say Gordon a run over Genia who was super-ordinary vs the Scots and whom I think is living on past glories.)
 

Kev

Herbert Moran (7)
Yeah, though he still knocks 'em over.

(Btw and sorry to deflect, but has anyone _ever_ seen a place kicking style and ball-off-boot curvature that looks like a big miss and yet beautifully, weirdly curves back in like that of JT's?)

Gits could do it back in the day. Remember the old Qantas ad? Ah when we had some decent players in the team.


But yeah, JT's kicking is sublime.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Hmmmm, can get on board with the sentiment but not the logic.

You'll recall that neither fardy nor Horne were in the original squad on the basis of not being starters (and quite obviously because they were deserting). Kerevi then gets injured and Horne gets called up much to the frustration of meakes, Rona, etc supporters. The reason was though that he needed a ready made sub for TK. Rightly or wrongly he wanted an experienced player for that role, not a cleanskin.

Meanwhile, those advocating fardy's selection are crying double standards. The reality is that if an experienced back rower went down fardy would have been the first call up. Didn't happen. Period.


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I fail to see the logic there, perhaps you can explain it? Slowly, for the slow people like me.

Let's bear in mind the following:
- Horne was arguably the worst performed of the Australian 13, with the lowest tackle completion rate (yes, lower than Kerevi, Horne indeed tackled worse than Kerevi this year, a guy heavily criticised for his poor defence)
- Cheika wanting a "ready made replacement" at 13 makes no sense, given he selected just Hanigan and Dempsey for development at 6 - guys with little experience, and one not having even played this year (what was wrong with Smiler?)
- Horne was drafted into the squad before it was assembled, so there's zero argument for calling into a guy who'd been there before that could settle quickly anyway

At the end of the day, wanting an experience player in a dirt tracker position covering a very experienced player for these tests makes zero sense when he chose two completely inexperienced people at blindside, and still insists on starting one when all and sundry agree he currently looks way out of his depth.

Again, can you please explain what I am missing here? Applying Occam's Razor, all I can see is crass favouritism.
 

Twoilms

Trevor Allan (34)
So, you are pleased to make such corrections, no problem.

So, you and Twolims seriously argue by inference that EJ (Eddie Jones) has made no crucial, meaningful and sustained improvements to this 'best ever' England squad and that his 2016-17 record of 1 Test loss is something Lancaster (had he continued) would have readily also attained (including defeating Australia 4-0 in 2016) as this squad was so unprecedentedly good and almost on autopilot in its competitive goodness?

Whilst, as per the related posts above, poor ol' Chek has had to battle away doing his magic with a shit Aussie squad that he has by now lifted to its mediocre optimum level?

(I do appreciate that there is much residual affection for Chek on these boards but I think understandable nostalgic sentimentality post his 2014 achievements (that I have always applauded big time) has perhaps by now run its course and we need to judge him by his attainments from late 2014.)
No, Lancaster would not have readily achieved it because he was a terrible coach where as EJ (Eddie Jones) is a good coach. What i am saying is that England have a kickass generation of excellent players in EVERY position and that Lancaster fucked up hardstyle by allowing such a great bunch of players get knocked out in the World Cup group stages.

Cheik took a mediocre Australia team with some seriously aging players and pushed them to the World Cup final and therefore earnt best coach in the world. Maybe Hansen should have got it but maybe Hansen has an easy gig as well.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
I haven't sen the tackle stats for Super Rugby this year, but my clear impression, including from the test series v England last year, is that Rob Horne has missed a lot. He is not the solid defender he was in years gone by and I live in hope that certain posters who always proclaim his defensive prowess will someday recognise this fact.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Cheika on his selections

Horne - effort in camp, workrate
Timani - wasn't fit enough
Moore - opportunity to start, was always getting a start in one of the three games
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
...Rob Horne has missed a lot. He is not the solid defender he was in years gone by

I seem to remember that he has had shoulder injuries. That may cause not only a loss of technique but also a drop in confidence.
As a younger player his defence was always accurate and punishing. I hope he is again on Saturday.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I haven't sen the tackle stats for Super Rugby this year, but my clear impression, including from the test series v England last year, is that Rob Horne has missed a lot. He is not the solid defender he was in years gone by and I live in hope that certain posters who always proclaim his defensive prowess will someday recognise this fact.


On this years stats Horne is about as good a defender as Kerevi (there are only a couple of percentage points in it), his stats are the average for the Tahs and Kerevi's are about the average for the Reds.

Kuridrani's are better and about the average for the ponies (are you seeing any sort of correlation there?)

I am quite certain if Kuridrani hadn't been so underwhelming against the Scots, Horne wouldn't be playing.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I can only imagine that Hodge has been bludging at training because he'd be my 13 option for TK, well ahead of Horne.


Well his performance on Saturday didn't help either and his defensive work this season is on par with Kerevi and Horne. Unfortunately Hodge so far looks like a guy in his second season
 
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