• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

Australia v British & Irish Lions, 3rd Test (Sydney)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hal9000

Frank Row (1)
The ARU has got to stop paying mega bucks to fancy back line players and pay over the top to the best props they can find! The Wallabies could field three back lines of merit but how many front rows of quality? Not even one it seems, yet all the noise is about wingers and fullbacks. Time to get real and spend big bucks on developing world class tight forwards, or stealing a few from wherever they can be found.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
And did White keep his job.. thats what i thought.. (2007 WC winners for all the wrong reasons - p.s.s. Was White merely the puppet of a certain ex-wobblies coach, perhaps) interesting he's also at the brumbies. Coincidental? Think not

I would very much like to see you suggest this to Jake's face. Mayhem!
 

Starch

Bob McCowan (2)
Great atmosphere and spirit at the stadium; but frustrated that I had no idea what was going on in the scrums; which pissed me off because that was where the result came from. With closeups and replays, I can follow the rulings, but if the fans at the ground cant understnd an area that dominates the game, it needs fixing. And more academic infringements shouldnt allow shots at goal. I'm happy we were beaten by tries and a great team performance from the Lions
Although the result looked embarrissing, the game wasn't as afr out of our reach as it appears. And I still think this was a team that could have won. But I will now agree there are some areas needing looking at. Mogg needs to be persisted with; and Beale needs to earn his spot next time.
JOC (James O'Connor) showed why he needs to be there, if in a different position. The forward subs had no chance to make an impression as the game was over by then, and even if it was superman and the wolverine, had Buckleys of turning back the tide. The scrum looked no worse from the stands with Douglas off, the lineout looked better.
Still optimistic for the rest of the year from here
 

churchills cigar

Peter Burge (5)
Gutless, incompetent, inept are three words that come to mind.
The kicking was below par for a 12 year old, I feel it apt the JOC (James O'Connor) is now club less. I do not subscribe to all the media hyperbole regarding him. At best he is a bench player at test level, a Wally at super level. Beale also has not lived up to his press and we see just how reliant we are on a performing Genia.
I'm sorry, but the process is all wrong, played are too immature, lack the basic skills and rugby smarts and are not physically capable to holding ground with such a dominant side as the Lions.
The AB's and Saffers much be salivating at our incompetence.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)

Pusser

Larry Dwyer (12)
Speaking of laws of the game. I just saw a replay of Beal tipping the ball back into the field of play but the ball was past the touch line. I thought there was plane of touch?
There is but it has gone the way of straight scrum feeds.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
'If' we get a new coach my preference is for McKenzie. No secret there right. But I agree with Slim about White. He's a great coach but he's not finished at the Brumbies. We have a great coach. Who is available. And importantly for quite a few people he's Australian.
Growden has come out again today talking about the ARU director hell bent on not appointing McKenzie because he's a forward. I'd say to Growden name the bastard! What are you scared of? Let him cop a barrage of emails for his stupid stance.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
'If' we get a new coach my preference is for McKenzie. No secret there right. But I agree with Slim about White. He's a great coach but he's not finished at the Brumbies. We have a great coach. Who is available. And importantly for quite a few people he's Australian.
Growden has come out again today talking about the ARU director hell bent on not appointing McKenzie because he's a forward. I'd say to Growden name the bastard! What are you scared of? Let him cop a barrage of emails for his stupid stance.

There's room for the view that we need the emphasis on forward play that a head coach who was a forward could bring
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
The ARU has got to stop paying mega bucks to fancy back line players and pay over the top to the best props they can find! The Wallabies could field three back lines of merit but how many front rows of quality? Not even one it seems, yet all the noise is about wingers and fullbacks. Time to get real and spend big bucks on developing world class tight forwards, or stealing a few from wherever they can be found.



Mmmmm. Do you really think that we can produce good tight forwards just by "paying over the top?".

If we cannot produce our own, we need to fix that. Not sure how, frankly, but I would like to see all stakeholders of the game, from the bottom to the top, agreeing that the health of the game depends to a large extent on the health of the national side. And then, all stakeholders agreeing to work together to produce players, competitions, and paths towards excellence that might result in success.

I doubt that we can buy our way out of this problem. If you have any specific suggestions, please post them. Who should we buy?
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Growden has come out again today talking about the ARU director hell bent on not appointing McKenzie because he's a forward. I'd say to Growden name the bastard! What are you scared of? Let him cop a barrage of emails for his stupid stance.


NEWS FLASH! GREG GROWDEN IN UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMOUR CONTROVERSY!

No wait - that's just repeating his last 15 years of rugby journalism. Move along. Nothing to see here...
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
There is again so much hyperbole critical of Australian Front row stocks. There are plenty of very good props in Australia. Indeed there are some excellent Props. The problem is they are not getting developed properly. Robbie Deans, and before him (and before Connolly) Eddie Jones prescribed what they wanted from a front rower. They wanted mobility, tackling and work rate. We got Matt Dunning, Bill Young and more recently, S. Fainga'a, Ben Daley, Ben Alexander. Now these are all players who had and have potential to be good test front rowers. Perhaps not world best, but certainly not loci for derision that they have been the focus of. The problem is they have all been told what is required of them to be selected for the Wallabies and they train and practice accordingly. If a coach were to come in and say, to get selected a prop must have an acceptable technique at the scrum and be able to lift effectively at the lineout as the primary skill sets to be selected we would see a markedly different outcome. This has not happened.
Including the 2nd rowers in this and we have all seen that Robbie Deans cares little for the set piece in that he picked S. Timani for many tests even though he was a lineout liability because he was able to provide some debatable skills away from what most would regard as his core duties. Just as I say with the front row, if the second row cannot jump and compete effectively on both attacking and defensive lineouts and lock the scrum they do not fill the core requirements for selection.
Every position on the field has such selection criteria, and that is the main point that I take from the Deans era, too many of those selection criteria just don't get met because players are picked out of position, or to fill a role away from the core duties of the position.

IMHO many thinking Rugby people will look back on the Deans era and regard him and his coaching in the same light as the Eddie Jones era, that of a man with definite and strongly held views of how the game should and would be played under him, and he would brook no questioning or alterations to his model. When it failed it was obviously the fault of the tools and we saw a succession of players used for long periods, often with the skill set foibles described above and then they were discarded and obviously blamed for the failures. Think here, R. Brown, S. Timani, N. Sharpe (though Sharpie just wouldn't go away), Giteau, Cooper, Baxter.

I do not accept that there is any lack of depth in players, the lack is in the management and development of the magnificent talent that is actually on offer, and that for me is the great tragedy of the Deans era, the waste of so much talent and the lack of development of that base skill. For me it has made a mockery of the very reason for his signing and alleged strength that Deans was supposed to have.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Timani? He was a first choice lock until he was injured.


On the question of our front row stocks, conventional wisdom has it that our junior coaches do not produce genuine front rowers - because the rules allow it, they pick back-rowers in the front row so as to improve their chances of winning in the short term.


We need to build a culture in which good young specialist front rowers are developed, and encouraged, from their earliest days.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
There is again so much hyperbole critical of Australian Front row stocks. There are plenty of very good props in Australia. Indeed there are some excellent Props. The problem is they are not getting developed properly. Robbie Deans, and before him (and before Connolly) Eddie Jones prescribed what they wanted from a front rower. They wanted mobility, tackling and work rate. We got Matt Dunning, Bill Young and more recently, S. Fainga'a, Ben Daley, Ben Alexander. Now these are all players who had and have potential to be good test front rowers. Perhaps not world best, but certainly not loci for derision that they have been the focus of. The problem is they have all been told what is required of them to be selected for the Wallabies and they train and practice accordingly. If a coach were to come in and say, to get selected a prop must have an acceptable technique at the scrum and be able to lift effectively at the lineout as the primary skill sets to be selected we would see a markedly different outcome. This has not happened.
I agree we are not getting the best of many players, probably for a lot of reasons. Out of interest, what role and responsibility do you attribute to Super rugby coaches, the type of players they want, and the roles they want the players to fulfill? I ask, as these players are not blank canvases presented full of potential to Test selectors and coaches, who really have access a limited amount of the time. Most of their S&C, other training and playing is at Super Rugby level. The style of provincial rugby we see is quite removed from Test rugby, and set piece power has seemingly been off the main menu for several years, unfortunately.
Do we need more ARU control over Super Rugby coaching, something I suspect some franchises might not like? Of course none of this absolves the national coach of responsibility, but I think it is a very complex issue that starts way down the line in Australia.
The type of role Mike Cron has played in NZ is what we really need, but I'm not sure who can fill it.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Sorry biggsy, he can't go back ,he was to ARU with no guarantees, try and move him north:D

And funny you should say that Churchill, an ex Wallby wing said to me last week, the comment about SA and NZ would not be panicing over what they have seen!!


Can we try and return him under Australian consumer law? :D
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I agree with the premise of what you are saying Cyclo. The players are in a bit of a quandary with regard to provincial requirements and test requirements, but if the national coach says to a player I require you to do X with regard to S&C towards this end, whilst the provincial coach requires something slightly different, who will the player follow. The ultimate aim for the vast majority of these players is a test jersey, they will always follow the test coach and IMO most of the provincial coaches up to the last year and maybe two have also followed what the test coach has wanted. Indeed I think the Provincial sides have even contracted players they otherwise had no real interest in because they were required to.

We need a genuine debate on the importance of the set pieces to the game, and we need to develop players accordingly. If the set piece continues to be regarded as E. Jones and R. Deans have and do then we will continue to see the results we saw last night and have in the past.

We also need to develop coaches in just the same manner as players. Just as players with flawed core skill sets should not be selected neither should coaches with significantly flawed game plans, personel management and overall vision. This isn't just true for the test side but the Super sides as well. A test coach with such flaws must have suitable assistants to cover those gaps and they must have adequate input to ensure those areas are truely covered. At Super level coaches with such flaws (and that will be everyone because we all have our blind spots to a greater or lesser degree) need to be mentored and coached as well. These positions are not the end of learning as some may think, they are the pinnacle but they require just as much ongoing development to improve.

These are overall philosophical musings and I understand that many will discount what I am saying because I do not speak of specifics, but the fact is the specifics will change with each coach and player, while the philosophy will not.

Perhaps what is needed is a coaching summit in December every year, where the test coach can set out what he sees as the coaching priorities for the coming season giving and taking input and advice on not just broad tactical trends but on inidividual player developmental goals.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
We need a genuine debate on the importance of the set pieces to the game, and we need to develop players accordingly. If the set piece continues to be regarded as E. Jones and R. Deans have and do then we will continue to see the results we saw last night and have in the past.


Given the experimental scrum laws next season now is the perfect time to try and get an advantage in the long term hope of parity: everyone is starting from the same place, pretty much.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
I see the provincial coaches job as to develop their players to the best of their abilities for the good of the franchise. If they do their job well they will provide the national coach with a number of good options for each position from which to make his selections. Having five franchises increases the chances of different styles and flavours of both individual and team play which should also allow the coach to select according to his game plan as well.

By all means they should talk, but the national coach should not run roughshod over the franchise coaches.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top