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Aus vs NZ - 1st Test Sydney 17Aug2013

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Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
This week the criticism of Cooper has been fair. But no other flyhalf in Australia has had posters providing a running commentary of his errors while the game has been going on. It's good to see things have calmed down a lot. But I think Cooper has calmed done a lot too.

I have to say I'm a huge fan of To'omua. He'd be my favourite young player right now and I hope he continues to improve.
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
There is no 'they are all out to get us rubbish'. I do not think anyone is out to get us, whoever 'us' is. I never claimed anything of the sort. I am aware that the majority of AUS rugby fans like Quade, or are at least starting to warm to him.

But this has nothing to do with what I posted about at all. My post, was very simply about a double standard that applies to QC (Quade Cooper) and the rest of the AUS 10's my claim of its existence is not patently false.

Give me one mention in this thread other than mine of To'omua's brain explosion. You cant because there isn't any.
While you're searching for one though, count the mentions of QC (Quade Cooper)'s intercept.
Then have a think about the two errors.
One cost a try and is a risk vs reward thing. Had it not been intercepted, rocket may well have scored for QLD.
The other cost the Brumbies the chance to win the game and is inexcusable as it simply should not happen. Period.
Plenty of players are intercepted each week. By far you will only read about Quade's. Plenty of charge downs occur each week, but for some reason Quade's are more worthy of discussion. This is what is known as a double standard.

Nah......plenty of charge-downs don't happen.

How many times do you think To'omua, JOC (James O'Connor) or Foley have been charged-down or intercepted this year? What about Dan Carter and Morne Steyn?

It's not about a double standard but just the one standard - Tests level standard - and the sheer number of errors QC (Quade Cooper) makes compared to that standard. Carter getting charged down or intercepted doesn't happen that often.

Quade Cooper has the 2nd highest number of turn-overs in the competition - that just cannot be ignored.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Scoey It is difficult to ascertain if you are trolling or just paranoid.

To'omua is mentioned 11 times in this thread so far. A very quick summary shows:

# 66 - positive named on the bench by Sir Arthur.
# 103, 113 critical from me
#121 positive from Sully
#112 critical from Athilnaur
#111 critical from I Like to Watch
#117 neutral/critical/balanced from Barbarian
#119 neutral from Braveheart
#123 neutral/balanced from Bullrush

#110, 120 from Scoey

The brain explosion is mentioned specifically by me in my post.

IIRC it also received a fair bit of coverage in the Match thread.

I think ths issue has been summed up rather well by Braveheart81. As To'omua gets closer to becoming a Wob, he will come under more scrutiny and criticism.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
This week is a prime example. Quade played a pretty average game. A few nice touches, a few bad errors, but generally the Reds didn't click and QC (Quade Cooper) should take a bit of responsibility for that. It honestly reminded me of JOC (James O'Connor)'s performance for the Wallabies.
.

The bolded bit is the only bit I really disagree with, as I saw them as entirely different problems. Scott Allen really highlighted JOC (James O'Connor)'s inability to link with any back other than Beale when he pointed out how many times Leelo got the ball from JOC (James O'Connor). In contrast, Quade got the ball to the Reds backs well enough, but normally with a long blue line of defence in their face (just contrast JOC (James O'Connor)'s K/P/R in the first two Lions games to Quade's on Saturday).

Reds have had issues with their backs being penetrative all year. Last night, some of this was Quade's fault, some was Frisby's (who has a quick enough pass but sprays then around), and most I'd say from the Red's centres, fullback and wings who barely provided any penetration or support play or options when given the chance (if you look at the Reds' linebreaks to tries, their conversion rate is absolutely shocking).

Live at the ground, the Reds backs weren't providing many good options. Unlike previous years they'd have a decoy out to a second man play, and they just weren't there for Quade to find - not sure whose fault that is. A lot of the time on Saturday you could see the forwards come around the corner until they ran out of room or forward pods, then the ball went to Quade with the defence set and ready. Not when you want the ball to go to your backs, and I'm sure that most 5/8s aren't exactly happy receiving the ball with a set defence waiting. Honestly, the Reds backs never even looked close to being threat in that game from where I sat.

The Reds' inability to penetrate was also shown in their clean breaks - just three, two to Frisby around the ruck, and one from Lucas out wide. A few times Lucas got the ball in space and looked like he was running in deep mud. The few times the Reds had space the Waratahs defence easily slid and covered them.

Not sure what has gone on with the Reds backs this year, but their revolving door at 12 through 15 certainly hasn't helped. There's real issues there in the midfield for the Reds, and I think it's been their real weakness this year. They have definitely been trading on reputation a lot this year.

Regarding the intercept try, normally you would've expected people to be all over Quade for that, but it's been pretty muted. Personally, I don't really fault Quade for throwing that pass - it was a set move that McKibbin happened to read. Not sure it was the most well thought out move, although Davies had a yearning hole if McKibbin had followed Quade. The problem was that the execution was too close to the line.

The final thing is kicking from hand. Most of the kicks from Quade had the right idea (I can just think of one shorter one that didn't), but the execution was not great. One example is that the Tahs were playing with their wingers up in the line a lot (particularly off set piece), leaving the fullback to cover a huge area. Cooper did spot this, but in one example his kick didn't have enough angle on it and Volavola easily got across. Defensive lines with the wingers in the line leave a lot of space for a kick in behind, and the Reds should've done better to take advantage. Would be keen to know if the Tahs have been playing with that alignment all year, or if they switched for that game.
 

Scoey

Tony Shaw (54)
Bullrush, I didn't claim that QC (Quade Cooper) doesn't make mistakes. So I'm not sure what your point is. Again, my issue is with the double standard.

HJ, mate I don't troll and I don't think I'm paranoid but thanks for that anyway. I'm glad you went to the trouble of finding the one mention of To'omua's brain explosion. I note you didn't count the mentions of the intercept but then again that might prove my point.

Never mind but. This is the test thread. I'll pull my head in.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Give me one mention in this thread other than mine of To'omua's brain explosion. You cant because there isn't any.
While you're searching for one though, count the mentions of QC (Quade Cooper)'s intercept.
Then have a think about the two errors.
One cost a try and is a risk vs reward thing. Had it not been intercepted, rocket may well have scored for QLD.
The other cost the Brumbies the chance to win the game and is inexcusable as it simply should not happen. Period.
Plenty of players are intercepted each week. By far you will only read about Quade's. Plenty of charge downs occur each week, but for some reason Quade's are more worthy of discussion. This is what is known as a double standard.

QCs intercept has been mentioned maybe twice. You can't say there has been any extended discussion on it at all. To'omua's 'brain explosion' has not been discussed, but it was mentioned by a few posters that he had a bad game.

And I think your second paragraph is largely rubbish as well. There aren't plenty of intercepts and charge downs each week. For some reason it tends to happen more to Quade, and that's why it is worthy of discussion.

I don't think he was much at fault for the intercept, and no-one has really had much of a dig at him about it.

I don't think it is a double standard at all.
.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Here's what really highlights the difference as to how some 10s play with different game plans. The difference is stark.

JOC (James O'Connor) K/P/R stats:
Game 1: 2/15/7
Game 2:4/18/10
Game 3: 8/14/8
Clan: 4/15/4 (in 33 minutes!)
edit: Note that Hegarty had 6/23/9 in the same game vs the Clan.

Quade K/P/R stats:
Lions: 12/44/17
Tahs: 16/31/16

Foley K/P/R stats:
Lions: 8/36/11
Reds: 7/54/13

To'omua K/P/R stats:
Lions: 14/10/4
Force: 7/16/5

Cruden K/P/R stats:
France 1: 8/20/5
France 2: 11/22/4
Crusaders: 3/5/6
Blues: 9/11/7

Carter K/P/R stats:
France 3: 13/30/11
Chiefs: 7/20/7
Canes: 8/16/8

Note that the Reds and Tahs play, both teams tend to have a high K/P/R from their 10. This style of play suits the Quade/Foley style of 10 I'd say. Note how high both K/P/R stats are for the Reds and Tahs in that game. Both teams had the 10 as their main playmaker in the backline.

Games where teams had the forwards ascendency tend to see more ball through their 10. The Chiefs forwards were spanked by the Crusaders and struggled against the Canes, and this is shown in Cruden struggling to get ball.

In the Clan vs Rebels, the Rebels dominated in the second half, giving JOC (James O'Connor) stats of 4/15/4 in just 33 minutes of play.

With the way the Wallaby forwards rumbled over the advantage line so easily in the first two games, we should've seen a lot action through our backline.

To me, JOC (James O'Connor) just didn't know when to step up and demand the ball. His play at 10 was almost robotic other than when he ran the ball and got to use his footwork. This was shown by the ludicrous move of playing a set move of a wide forward hit up off a lineout, followed by a high cross field kick to Folau's wing - after Folau had gone off!

Playing the gameplan that JOC (James O'Connor) did, a better choice would've been To'omua. If they wanted to use the backs, then Quade.
 

scaraby

Ron Walden (29)
Not sure QC (Quade Cooper) did enough to get a run on slot for Gold for this game. A few unforced errors which the Lords Of Darkness will be happy to see. His defence was by and large solid. SHould be enough to get in the squad if not the bench.
was going to say exactly the same
QC (Quade Cooper) Looked like he was thinking about selection again. I was lucky enough to travel up for Lions v Reds and I thought he was just trying a bit hard to get test selection.
He is a genius when relaxed but the scrutiny is starting to make him make mistakes and maybe try a few too many things.
I think he deserves a start and if he gets it right I am willing to bet you will see a much more relaxed and mistake free QC (Quade Cooper) in the future. If he gets it wrong it could be the end of him..............
I hope and wish the former but for this test we need to be prepared to have a genuine back up ready and not be afraid to use him early if need be.
In saying that I would love Link to tell QC (Quade Cooper) BEFORE the next Reds game that he has the Job for 1 test no matter what and see the difference it might make to his game.
 

scaraby

Ron Walden (29)
QC (Quade Cooper) was over playing his hand a little last night and also in his last few games for Qld. Without Genia and Horwill there he may feel he needs to do more?
If he could get back to underplaying it a little and securing the ball in contact rather than going for the 20-80 pass when under pressure he will go very well for the Wobs.
Slipper had a great all round game tonight but had a bit of a mixed bag at scrum time. Robbo got under him a couple of times. He also had a very good game and surely will be our first choice LH.

Robinson
Moore
Slipper
Horwill
Pyle
Mowen
Hooper
Palu
Genia
Cooper
Honey Badger
Lilo
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
Folau
Mogg

TPN
Alexander (LH)
Kepu (TH)
MMM
Gill
White
Horne/Tapuai
Beale


Something like this might work. Is White fit?[/quote





Agree 100% good team. Honey Badger was fantastic on weekend and surely deserves a start. Is Burgo available/eligible?
 

Bessa

Ted Fahey (11)
Ash
The Clan, The Darkness, the Golds.....
Why can't you just use the names of the teams like normal humans? I understand that it may make you feel like you are in a special group but it is down right annoying. I even hate when people use abbreviations without any context. I was reading a post the other day in the lions thread and the poster was referring to WG. I had to read the whole thing not knowing if he talk about Will Genia or Warren Gatland.
Come on people, let's not be lazy and use the right words, eh? I'm all for a cheeky nickname thrown in here or there for effect, but to write a 4 page post and constantly refer to the Rebels as The Clan, just seems a little silly to me.
 

scaraby

Ron Walden (29)
Ash
The Clan, The Darkness, the Golds...
Why can't you just use the names of the teams like normal humans? I understand that it may make you feel like you are in a special group but it is down right annoying. I even hate when people use abbreviations without any context. I was reading a post the other day in the lions thread and the poster was referring to WG. I had to read the whole thing not knowing if he talk about Will Genia or Warren Gatland.
Come on people, let's not be lazy and use the right words, eh? I'm all for a cheeky nickname thrown in here or there for effect, but to write a 4 page post and constantly refer to the Rebels as The Clan, just seems a little silly to me.
:)Clan=Scotland=Highlanders=good way to make your point:D
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
Bullrush, I didn't claim that QC (Quade Cooper) doesn't make mistakes. So I'm not sure what your point is. Again, my issue is with the double standard.

HJ, mate I don't troll and I don't think I'm paranoid but thanks for that anyway. I'm glad you went to the trouble of finding the one mention of To'omua's brain explosion. I note you didn't count the mentions of the intercept but then again that might prove my point.

Never mind but. This is the test thread. I'll pull my head in.

My point - as I said in my post - is that there is no double standard. Quade makes A LOT of mistakes and as there are a huge amount of people saying he should be the Wallaby 10, they get highlighted. The standard is Test Standard QC (Quade Cooper)'s so charge-downs and intercepts get talked about more because he makes more of those mistakes than the other Tests 10 and Test 10 wannabes.

And like barbarian said - and as I said in that first post on the first line - there aren't a lot of charge-downs each week. The fact that QC (Quade Cooper) charge-downs and intercepts are almost a given every week MUST be a little bit worrying Wallaby fans. Surely?!
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Ash
The Clan, The Darkness, the Golds...
Why can't you just use the names of the teams like normal humans? I understand that it may make you feel like you are in a special group but it is down right annoying. I even hate when people use abbreviations without any context. I was reading a post the other day in the lions thread and the poster was referring to WG. I had to read the whole thing not knowing if he talk about Will Genia or Warren Gatland.
Come on people, let's not be lazy and use the right words, eh? I'm all for a cheeky nickname thrown in here or there for effect, but to write a 4 page post and constantly refer to the Rebels as The Clan, just seems a little silly to me.

Thanks for singling me out there.

Highlanders = Clan, Canes = Hurricanes, and so on. They are very well known nick names for teams. Most rugby supporters will know them. Read any thread talking about the Highlanders and half the time they will be referred to as the "Clan". Much like calling the Waratahs "Tahs".

I use it because it's well known shorthand, not because "it may make [me] feel like (I) am in a special group". I have never used "The Darkness" or "the Golds" in my life, and hopefully never will.

I suggest you target your ire towards someone who actually uses "twee" names instead of well known nick names for teams.

Your point is valid, and there's many people that agree with the general thrust, but perhaps target someone actually doing it next time, thanks.

thishasbeena[notso]communityserviceannouncement

edit: forgot the damn tags to ignore stuff between square brackets

edit2: if you couldn't work out who the Clan were from context in my post, wow.....sorry, but wow.
 

Bessa

Ted Fahey (11)
Ash
I have been watching rugby for almost 40 years and I haven't heard the Highlanders called 'The Clan' before. Like I said, you must be in a special group.

Calling the Waratahs 'Tah's' is completely different. For starters NSW Rugby call themselves the Tahs. I can not recall having ever seen anyone call the Highlanders The Clan before.
Sorry if I singled you out, and to honest I couldn't even get through your original post. It may have been someone elses that referred to the others teams, but my point still stands.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
I hear the Australian "Wallabies" are playing the New Zealand "All Blacks" on Aug 17 at ANZ Stadium, which is located in the Homebush vicinity, in a precinct known as Olympic Park.
I reckon that is worth some discussion.
 
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