ARU moves to kill off club player payments: A 3rd tier, club rugby and the $60k persuader

[wamberal]

because it lifts the standard of club rugby. All teams should be trying to operate like they do.

It does not lift the general standard of club rugby, actually.


Club rugby is about a lot more than first grade teams, or colts. It is also about the kids in the community who might become interested in the game, but will only do so if their school plays (an increasingly shrinking base), or because there is a rugby club in their locality.


Guess where most kids live? They do not live at Sydney University. They live in the suburbs, the suburbs where the genuine district clubs have a presence, and where many of the district clubs put significant resources into running junior competitions.


As for the genuine district clubs operating like the Camperdown Fatcats, can you give us some specific pointers? I suppose we can start by dropping all our involvement in junior, grassroots rugby, and concentrating on just the senior teams. Then we can look around for some public money. Any other bright ideas?


No grassroots, no game. No matter how successful our self-centred friends become.

 

[Dave Beat]

It does not lift the general standard of club rugby, actually.

Club rugby is about a lot more than first grade teams, or colts. It is also about the kids in the community who might become interested in the game, but will only do so if their school plays (an increasingly shrinking base), or because there is a rugby club in their locality.

Guess where most kids live? They do not live at Sydney University. They live in the suburbs, the suburbs where the genuine district clubs have a presence, and where many of the district clubs put significant resources into running junior competitions.

As for the genuine district clubs operating like the Camperdown Fatcats, can you give us some specific pointers? I suppose we can start by dropping all our involvement in junior, grassroots rugby, and concentrating on just the senior teams. Then we can look around for some public money. Any other bright ideas?

No grassroots, no game. No matter how successful our self-centred friends become.

Beautiful pull to the boundary for 4.
Accurate in your points.
No club can offer what Uni make available, however there are a number of areas that can be followed.

Other clubs have true grass roots and spend a lot of volunteered time nurturing and developing them - Uni doesn't have this luxury, but something attracts players there when they reach colts?????

Other clubs loose these players to Uni, or other Provinces that don't like releasing players - unfortunately.
Uni, another Province, or a career

 

[boyo]

There must be some more Uni' bashing that can be done.

The implication is that there's a lack of effort.

 

[Dave Beat]

There must be some more Uni' bashing that can be done.

The implication is that there's a lack of effort.

Boyo - Uni has made best use of their resources - congrats, I think every sportsman, team, or company strives to make the best use of their resources I don't think that should be restricted.

But

The "resources" pull from other geographic grass roots when they reach around colts, and I don't have a solution to that.

 

[Gavin]

God this nonsence just keeps on being repeated to the point that it becomes fact.

Sydney University doesn't exist in a vaccum. It's in Camperdown and for the last ten years, SU have provided coaches and funding for all age groups at Sydney and NSW representative carnivals. They play in Uni strip however players are representing the Inner West. They are drawn from Canterbury, Petersham and Balmain junior clubs. Many of the uni players that you all love to "bag" have assisted with coaching clinics over the last ten years.

As to the claim that the District clubs put a lot into the village clubs, youv'e got to be joking. I was president of the HKJRU for many years and it was a really mixed bag of support. Some District clubs just stacked their age rep teams with private school kids, some provided no support at all and others maybe some support.

Earlier in this thread I was asked to justify having an Australain schoolboy halfback playing in our 2nd grade colts team. He was in 2nd grade colts beacuse there are two better halfbacks in the squad. One of them (Jake Gordon) was playing his third season with the colts (he actually played around 10 games this year in 1st Grade). Anyone know of him? No. He is a local Newtown kid.

What about Tolo Latu? Uni's colt who has just won a Waratahs contract. That's right, he's still a colt and has come through the Canterbury juniors and four year at Uni.

This year we had 10 players in our colts who have come through our local juniors programme. How about if you cut the crap about S.U. not developing local juniors.

Then there is the other massive piece of crap that Uni recruits all the major schoolboy stars. Uni has signed 46 players over the last ten years who have played either 1st or 2nd NSW schoolboys. That's 4.6 players per year. Of those 46, only 7 of them started for Uni in the Grand Final.

"As for the genuine district clubs operating like the Camperdown Fatcats, can you give us some specific pointers?" YES. Get rid of your "loser" mentality and develop a positive strategic plan. Build a winning culture in your club that has everone working toward the same goal. Uni took 7 years to build it's winning culture and has reaped the benefits for the last 8.

The most valuable of all the resources that Uni has, is depth of quality coaches and a club wide positive culture. Yes, the other resources are difficult for other clubs to replicate, however focusing on building a positive club culture and a professional coaching team aare way more significant.

Therein lies the problem for all clubs. For a professional code, rugby has no clear pathway for coaches. In all other codes, coaches are full time professionals at club level and can see a pathway to the top. In rugby there are a few paid full time coaching positions at national and super 15 level and few at club level. How much time and effort will a voluntee or part time coach put into the job when there is little opportunity to move into the top echelon. It's much the same as it is for players. Players and coaches go where there is the best opportunity to create a future for themselves.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Sydney University doesn't exist in a vaccum. It's in Camperdown and for the last ten years, SU have provided coaches and funding for all age groups at Sydney and NSW representative carnivals. They play in Uni strip however players are representing the Inner West. They are drawn from Canterbury, Petersham and Balmain junior clubs. Many of the uni players that you all love to "bag" have assisted with coaching clinics over the last ten years.

Did they miss the bus to the ground in U15s in 2013'?
Did they miss the bus to Orange in U14's in 2012?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

@Inside Shoulder, There are no buses available after Scots have scooped up all the spare buses.

Yeah Uni could perhaps do more with the limited number of juniors in their catchment area, but credit should be given for times when they have cobbled together a Team for State champs. I've seem a few of them from time to time. Also they have been involved in the recent Balmain Juniors startup.

In contrast, IIRC Easts had 1 player at State champs this year in age groups > U13. There were only 6 metro teams in U17's.

I'd like to see Uni work with and develop kids from Redfern, Erko and Newtown, perhaps in conjunction with the LLoyd McDermott talent scouts. There is an Eora Warriors team that I have seen in the SJRU competitions from time to time, but I think that this team is seen as a Randwick team. Should be a Uni team.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

@HughJarse the claim made by @Gavin was somewhat more sweeping than your toned down analysis. He said:

for the last ten years, SU have provided coaches and funding for all age groups at Sydney and NSW representative carnivals

In 2 ages covering 10 years I saw them in U13's in 2011.
I'm not craving mediocrity and I admire what they have done but there's only so much that traiing hard with the best facilities can achieve. At some point our best players need to be honed in the furnace of week in week out competition if we are to address the calamitous decline in the national product.

 

[louie]

It does not lift the general standard of club rugby, actually.

When i said standard i didn't mean general standard. I meant the standard of performance that clubs should be aiming for. Teams like Eastwood, Southern Districts and Manly have lifted their standards noticeably in the last years to keep up. This wouldn't have happened without SU dominance.

 

[wamberal]

When i said standard i didn't mean general standard. I meant the standard of performance that clubs should be aiming for. Teams like Eastwood, Southern Districts and Manly have lifted their standards noticeably in the last years to keep up. This wouldn't have happened without SU dominance.

Hugh, with the greatest of respect, that is an assertion that is unproven.


Are you seriously suggesting that standards have not been rising since the advent of professionalism, generally? And that they would have risen, with or without the current dominant position of the Corporation?



But just for a minute let us assume that the whole increase in player standards comes about because of the dominance of one organisation. Do you think that the dominance of one sporting organisation, which is not a community rugby club, not identified with any district of the big city, is actually a good thing for the game and its future?


How many kids out in the suburbs identify with this little bastion of privilege?


A situation where the pinnacle of the season results in a hammering of the minor premiers is, surely, not good for the future of the game. Perhaps you can explain exactly why it is good for the game.

 

[It is what it is]

When i said standard i didn't mean general standard. I meant the standard of performance that clubs should be aiming for. Teams like Eastwood, Southern Districts and Manly have lifted their standards noticeably in the last years to keep up. This wouldn't have happened without SU dominance.

Uni crushed Eastwood 51-6 in the grand final. Eastwood had only lost 2 games all season until then - have Eastwood lifted their standard of performance noticeably or were they about 15-20 Super rugby standard players short at the end of the season against Uni?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

@wamberal and @it is what it is make good points.
Without their s15 players uni were not good enough to sustain a season long performance worthy of the minor premiership.
If the s 15 players who came back to uni had instead been evenly spread around all the other clubs its a fair bet the woodies would have won. That has to be good for club rugby and, in fact, would show the other clubs that if you put in the effort in all facets of the game you can win.
Instead we have the inevitable return of uni players who are not, by definition, juniors from Uni who take the prize and lead everyone to think well you can win the minor premiership but you won't win the shute shield.
This is not Uni's fault its the Tahs and ARU's fault.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The issue is that District Juniors do stuff all development. They may have plenty of kids playing with junior village clubs inside their geographic boundaries, but not many actually develop their juniors.

Some clubs have established junior academies, and take control of the Rep programme. Hobbits have just realised that they can do more in that regard, and I can see them increase their performances at State cup as a result.

Most of the elite former junior village club juniors get their "elite" development from within their school programme or the Jnr Gold Squad/cup or NGS.

Until the Shute Shield clubs actually invest time and resources in their juniors, former juniors will beat a path towards clubs that they believe will look after them, not the club who's banner they previously did State champs under.

 

[Quick Hands]

The issue is that District Juniors do stuff all development. They may have plenty of kids playing with junior village clubs inside their geographic boundaries, but not many actually develop their juniors.

Some clubs have established junior academies, and take control of the Rep programme. Hobbits have just realised that they can do more in that regard, and I can see them increase their performances at State cup as a result.

Most of the elite former junior village club juniors get their "elite" development from within their school programme or the Jnr Gold Squad/cup or NGS.

Until the Shute Shield clubs actually invest time and resources in their juniors, former juniors will beat a path towards clubs that they believe will look after them, not the club who's banner they previously did State champs under.

Big generalisation there, but no doubt the clubs could do more. Little old Manly have been putting a lot of time and effort into juniors recently and won 3 age groups at the State Champs with local talent. It also shows in that all 3 colts and all 4 grade teams qualified for the semi-finals - the local talent generally sticks around (a couple lost to uni, but we've retained most)
There are other clubs who put effort in to winning State Champs, but do it with boys travelling from across Sydney and these clubs aren't travelling that well at either grade or colts. There's a lesson there.

 

[Crashy]

West Sydney Rams imo. Feed Penrith, Parra, Harbour and the Woodies into it.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The generalisation that Juniors should be loyal to their "parent" district club because they have developed them is refuted by the equal generalisation that Clubs do stuff all Junior development.

As I said in my post, SOME clubs have decided to invest in their Juniors (academies, coaches and selectors running the rep programmes) and in this instance, they have legitimate claims to the loyalty of Juniors they have "developed".

Manly marlins has been very progressive in their approach to their juniors and village clubs by all accounts.
Pirates have recently established a junior academy, as have the Wicks. Emu's are in the process of doing this. Hobbits have signalled their intent as well.
Gordon have had rep teams training over the summer since whenever.

Some of these have attracted talent from across their borders. Some of these may have involved some inducement/persuasion, and others have been due to the parents wanting Johnny to be associated with a development programme.

There may be other clubs running similar and good on them.

It wasn't so long ago that many clubs viewed their Colts almost as a completely separate entity from the rest of the club, and a drain on Club resources. Fortunately things have changes in many instances.

 

[Crashy]

just out of interest, why do you call Randwick, the Hobbits?

 

[Braveheart81]

just out of interest, why do you call Randwick, the Hobbits?

I think he's talking about Southern Districts and it's because they're from The Shire.

Hobbits also come from The Shire in the Lord of the Rings universe.

 

[Quick Hands]

Interesting Canterbury JRC used to be affiliated with Sthn Districts, but are now with Sydney Uni

 

[wamberal]

Interesting Canterbury JRC used to be affiliated with Sthn Districts, but are now with Sydney Uni

Geographically it makes more sense. Let us hope that it is a genuine initiative, and not just a bit of window dressing to counter the obvious point that grass roots junior rugby is actually more important for the future of the game than momentary success of a rich rugby "club" - although of course it would be nice if the Waratahs were genuinely successful. Not to mention the Wobbs.

If, and when, the Waratahs and particularly the Wobbs ever get back into top gear, I will bet that it will be on the back of a reasonable sprinkling of players who have come up the hard way, have played for club sides that have lost games, and have learned to overcome handicaps. There will always be some golden boys, but not many, I hope.

We should be putting some of these privileged players into the ITM Cup to harden them up a bit. Forget about swanning around having fun in the SS for a couple of years, and cop some hidings, and toughen up a bit against tough opposition.