ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[S'UP]

Fireball - the trialling process you so enjoy is failed in the Brisbane system as it was by invitation only! Fact, this from a Brisbane point has been rushed through with little thought for the boys or parents who will be involved, the coaches have come from the BJRU system, many of them existing rep coaches so no change there.

It is a good idea, it does offer a pathway, but if the only guys who turn up are there due to invitation due to prior recognition then what is this new pathway?

We have too many organisations trying to pull the boys in too many different directions - at some point someone will lose and from my point of view it looks like the clubs. Already year 11 and 12 kids are told not to play club rugby by the AIC and GPS schools who in many cases have invested in these kids, will this creep into years 9 and 10?

We can talk all we like about pathways, schools, club, JGC and anything else you like but until someone at the ARU grows some balls and takes control of rugby from the top all the way down to school/ Junior club things will never improve, everything will still be done based on self interest. Everyone is very well intentioned but i'm sure nobody at school rugby cares how they affect club, Junior clubs don't care what happens to juniors once they become colts there is little or no intergration, super rugby has no interest in anything other than themsleves as it is a money making venture, and so it goes on. Like any business direction comes from the top, this isn't a democracy the ARU takes charge, they dictate the terms and conditions that everyone plays under, i.e. schools do this, clubs do that, senior rugby does this and so on and if you don't want to toe the line you don't get endorsed, your competition and your players aren't recognised for representative selection at any level. It may sound harsh but what worked in the past isn't working anymore. Rugby is clearly the 5th winter sport in this country a long way behind AFL, Rugby league, Football (Soccer)and Netball. It's time someone woke up and banged a few heads together.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Maybe this is the first step in the process of pathway reform.

There are some very entrenched self interest groups that Whitiker and the Pulveriser need to take on in the long term.

Perhaps they are out for a couple of quick and easy victories in some skirmishes around the fringes before they join the main battle with all their artillery, tanks, planes and ships.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Given that it seems the Sydney squads won't be announced for some days it is unrealistic to think much will happen prior to December, at which time school finishes.
So the training for gold cup will be more like an 80s pre season club affair than an off season development program.

 

[Dark Shark]

Personally, I think this new programme is a good thing. Seen earlier hybrid programmes - which were more off season development - and saw skill levels improve exponentially. I thought adding the games / comp at the end was the icing on the cake as it gave the whole thing purpose.

However, I have heard that some boys have got to the end of the season having been going full tilt since late Feb, early March and having played well over 40 and up to 50 games in the season as well as the training that Nessie refers to earlier and are just tired of it all.

These boys I know, do other sports during summer and are looking for the break but staying active.

Some parents with sons invited to trial who I spoke to were not aware of any fees (which surprised me. I do not know if it was a lack of info or lack of reading what was sent) and were quite taken aback when I mentioned it was $660. But I do not think that is a show stopper for them.

Other families I know that chose not to trial was because of the commitment required in Term 1 next year that clashed or loaded up the player when he also had other school commitments.

Some way, we have to get it right and that will not happen until all parties work together rather than against each other. It has been said ad infinitum on this site that there is no chance of improvement in the status quo throughout rugby in Australia until all major parties (ARU, State bodies, Super Teams, Clubs, School organisations and junior clubs work together). But hell will freeze over before that happens because all have different purposes and vested interests at this point.

 

[BORED]

Given that it seems the Sydney squads won't be announced for some days it is unrealistic to think much will happen prior to December, at which time school finishes.
So the training for gold cup will be more like an 80s pre season club affair than an off season development program.

Heard from one of the parents that the Brisbane squads will be released on the website on Monday 11 Nov 13. They are picking 4 squads of 30 players. Players who have been selected will also receive an e-mail with further details on the Gold Cup comp.

 

[Dingasden]

I apologise in advance if i get of the track here but thought I'd give the perspective of a coach who has just finished 11 years with the same team from 6s to 15s. Only my son & 1 other kid having played all 11 years. This year we had 25 players. Only 3 go to private school. The rest at local high schools, traditionally league or soccer orientated.
I agree that a program like the JGC is a good initiative. It won't attract all talent. Some kids want a break from rugby, some potentials are involved in league development squads like Harold Matthews, some simply cant afford the fee (regardless of any offers to look at concessions upon application), some may be readdressing their future sporting endeavours, & some may not have heard about it.
Those north of Sydney Harbour need to realise the struggles that the western, eastern & southern junior clubs are having not only attracting kids to rugby but retaining them after about age 13. The competition from league, AFL & soccer is enormous not to mention activities such as skateboarding, chasing girls, and surfing (for the south & east at least).
In the 11 years coaching our age group I have seen 5 out of 7 teams fold, 3 in the last 2 years.
I'm not sure what the answer is other than having the right people on board (coaches, club committee, etc) & recruiting bloody hard. The senior clubs don't do much nor do the schools. Apart from the odd visit from an ARU or Waratah player we don't see much support from the upper hierarchy of rugby. We certainly don't see a return on the dollars spent attending test matches or Super 15 games. Nothing new there.
As a reps coach I wrote a few references for kids to go to private schools only to see them being told they can't play for their club once they're about 15 or 16. We develop them for 10 or more years and at the critical age we need them, they can't play for us for fear from the school (or parents) of them getting injured.
Next year our boys are in 16s. This years 16s had over 30 registered players but as there is no 17s comp, we don't expect to field a side in the opens comp (which is not graded). Some of these 30+ boys will still play school rugby but the bulk we risk losing forever to league or retirement. Some of the senior clubs have tried to organise a club wide 17s and 18s comp in an effort to retain these players but this idea has apparently fallen on deaf ears. Many senior clubs (you can guess the main culprits) don't see an issue with retention of junior players from 16s up. Most if these clubs are fed from the private schools. Not every club can compete with attracting such players due to location or "whats on offer". With short sighted attitudes like this what hope do we have?
Sorry for digressing a bit guys but there are lots of issues that need to be addressed to build numbers and quality of rugby in Australia and it starts from an early age. Personal interests and agendas make it difficult to make positive changes but I really think the JGC is a step in he right direction. Cheers

 

[Hugh Jarse]

No digressing @Dingasden. Good summation of the real world of junior footy. There are many of us who have done what you have done, observed what you have observed and came to similar conclusions. I would say that your story is typical not atypical.

The thing I don't see yet from JCG is the link, after the comp finishes, into club or (non-AAGPS/ISA/CAS) school footy, particularly for the U17's.

We need something to keep players occupied in Rugby between U15's and Colts (either grade or Subbies colts). Involving too many of the AAGPS boys who get locked up in school footy in the U17 JGC will not get an increase in player numbers in the SJRU Under 17/Opens competition.

 

[The Incredible Plan]

[quote="The thing I don't see yet from JCG is the link, after the comp finishes, into club or (non-AAGPS/ISA/CAS) school footy, particularly for the U17's.

We need something to keep players occupied in Rugby between U15's and Colts (either grade or Subbies colts). Involving too many of the AAGPS boys who get locked up in school footy in the U17 JGC will not get an increase in player numbers in the SJRU Under 17/Opens competition.[/quote]

Agree with this - and like IS's suggestion of tying the JGC to the SS and equivalent senior clubs or groupings of them as a possible way of bridging the gap between junior clubs and colts 3. As well as reviewing the selection process next year which ARU have indicated they will do, they should also consider how exactly the JGC could help the current club pathway.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

[quote="The thing I don't see yet from JCG is the link, after the comp finishes, into club or (non-AAGPS/ISA/CAS) school footy, particularly for the U17's.

We need something to keep players occupied in Rugby between U15's and Colts (either grade or Subbies colts). Involving too many of the AAGPS boys who get locked up in school footy in the U17 JGC will not get an increase in player numbers in the SJRU Under 17/Opens competition.

Agree with this - and like IS's suggestion of tying the JGC to the SS and equivalent senior clubs or groupings of them as a possible way of bridging the gap between junior clubs and colts 3. As well as reviewing the selection process next year which ARU have indicated they will do, they should also consider how exactly the JGC could help the current club pathway.[/quote]


An obvious solution would be for the clubs to make Colt 3 an U18s competition. Similar with the U16s age group to fill in the gap between the JGC 15s and 17s squads.

 

[Boof]

Attended the JGC induction today it was very well presented with clear guidelines of expectations and costs involved explained. The $660 include's all travel and accommodation costs for our boys along with a very large amount of kit the boys receive so I feel the cost is pretty reasonable. Looking forward to seeing the boys enjoying and challenging themselves over the summer. I hope other centres are run as well, if so your boys will gain a lot.

 

[Ruckhard]

Personally, I think this new programme is a good thing.

Some way, we have to get it right and that will not happen until all parties work together rather than against each other. It has been said ad infinitum on this site that there is no chance of improvement in the status quo throughout rugby in Australia until all major parties (ARU, State bodies, Super Teams, Clubs, School organisations and junior clubs work together). But hell will freeze over before that happens because all have different purposes and vested interests at this point.

Couldn't agree more - The ARU needs to take the lead on this whilst ensuring the other parties issues are addressed.
Unfortunately I feel that the school's will retain the upper hand and their financial interest and sway over the quality individuals who have to participate in first XV set up.

The problem within QLD and particularly the U17 age bracket in relation to participation in the JGC program would appear to already be highlighting the school v ARU conflict.

 

[behindthescenes]

The Brisbane U15 and U17 sides have been announced - check the QRU website for squad lists. Not sure how many boys trialled, but it doesn't appear too many have missed out. There are names of boys on these lists who play in the Bs and Cs at AIC schools. This is a great opportunity for these boys, but you can hardly call this an elite program. Any GPS school would put 50 points on these JNR Gold Brisbane teams. There's been a bit of chat on this thread about the 16s not having a comp, well I wouldn't worry about that, many of the names in the 17s squad are 16 year olds. It appears as though Terrace are the only GPS/AIC school who have released players from their starting 1stXV.

Surely the ARU realize that in Brisbane the GPS and AIC schools are pumping loads of money and resources into their rugby programs and are getting great results - look at our AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLBOYS team over the last few years. Unless these 'elite programs' can offer something of better quality than they are getting at school, than what value do you get out of it? I realise not all boys listed are at GPS OR AIC schools, but the BJRU state champs involves a lot of these boys.

The ARU need to leave the Brisbane and Sydney schools to spend up big and do the work for them. Invest the resources and money into an elite colts program - that's where we're losing our players. This Jnr gold cup is probably best for just the regional areas- Brisbane and Sydney have enough pathway opportunities from 15s-17s already.

 

[Boof]

The Brisbane U15 and U17 sides have been announced - check the QRU website for squad lists. Not sure how many boys trialled, but it doesn't appear too many have missed out. There are names of boys on these lists who play in the Bs and Cs at AIC schools. This is a great opportunity for these boys, but you can hardly call this an elite program. Any GPS school would put 50 points on these JNR Gold Brisbane teams. There's been a bit of chat on this thread about the 16s not having a comp, well I wouldn't worry about that, many of the names in the 17s squad are 16 year olds. It appears as though Terrace are the only GPS/AIC school who have released players from their starting 1stXV.

Surely the ARU realize that in Brisbane the GPS and AIC schools are pumping loads of money and resources into their rugby programs and are getting great results - look at our AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLBOYS team over the last few years. Unless these 'elite programs' can offer something of better quality than they are getting at school, than what value do you get out of it? I realise not all boys listed are at GPS OR AIC schools, but the BJRU state champs involves a lot of these boys.

The ARU need to leave the Brisbane and Sydney schools to spend up big and do the work for them. Invest the resources and money into an elite colts program - that's where we're losing our players. This Jnr gold cup is probably best for just the regional areas- Brisbane and Sydney have enough pathway opportunities from 15s-17s already.

I can only speak re NSW country areas, but we already have a pathway and country based comp, the NSW Country Championships. Unfortunately this is just not of a high enough standard for some boys to challenge themselves, the stronger boys need to play against stronger opposition to reach their full potential and the Gold Cup seems that it will provide the intense training and games for them. After being part of the Schools boys trials this year it is evident that the city based players have more than enough opportunity and pathways to choose from if they are good enough, Country players on the other hand have 2 pathways to traditionally under performing teams once they hit the big smoke being NSW CJRU and NSW Country Schools plus a few boys making CCC, CHS or ACIES. This new programme will at least have all boys starting on the same level with equal opportunity. I understand that the city based centres want the best boys, but who knows those boys in the Bs and Cs may just seize the opportunity given and rise to the top after all we do all understand that selection in the As doesn't always mean that they are the best players. This needs to be about getting as many boys as possible skilled up ready for senior rugby right ? At the end of the day the winners will not bet those lifting the shield but those players who were given the opportunity to shine and grabbed it with both hands.

 

[Hugie]

The Brisbane U15 and U17 sides have been announced - check the QRU website for squad lists. Not sure how many boys trialled, but it doesn't appear too many have missed out. There are names of boys on these lists who play in the Bs and Cs at AIC schools. This is a great opportunity for these boys, but you can hardly call this an elite program. Any GPS school would put 50 points on these JNR Gold Brisbane teams. There's been a bit of chat on this thread about the 16s not having a comp, well I wouldn't worry about that, many of the names in the 17s squad are 16 year olds. It appears as though Terrace are the only GPS/AIC school who have released players from their starting 1stXV.

Surely the ARU realize that in Brisbane the GPS and AIC schools are pumping loads of money and resources into their rugby programs and are getting great results - look at our AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLBOYS team over the last few years. Unless these 'elite programs' can offer something of better quality than they are getting at school, than what value do you get out of it? I realise not all boys listed are at GPS OR AIC schools, but the BJRU state champs involves a lot of these boys.

The ARU need to leave the Brisbane and Sydney schools to spend up big and do the work for them. Invest the resources and money into an elite colts program - that's where we're losing our players. This Jnr gold cup is probably best for just the regional areas- Brisbane and Sydney have enough pathway opportunities from 15s-17s already.

This attitude IS the problem. If we continue with this attitude then rugby will never be able to move on. Less than 10% of NSW and Qld boys go to rugby schools, most boys can't get the quality of these elite programs, that's what the JGC is trying to address, that's the point.
It is not about the elites providing yet better training to the elites.
We have to get the Australian Schoolboys Union team to have a demographic that looks like the league schoolboys team, and stop it being just an advertisement for GPS schools.
It will take some years for the JGC to start having an impact but you have to start with the first steps and build.

 

[Brainstrust]

There's a lot of good comment around the JGC on this thread, and to add to it I think the ARU deserves recognition for what they have done so far and what they are trying to achieve. They will be the first to admit that in year one they wont get it exactly right and will been keen to improive as they go forward. I am aware that in Sydney the teams have been selected on merit and done objectively. No doubt there will be some misses but in a grading challenge of over 450 boys across 2 age groups that is reasonable. I beleive the selectors have worked to a rating system and stuck to it, although its not always going to be perfect. I also hear they have tried to ensure that all squads are failry even as best can be done, and that they have tried to ensure that there is a good development aspect to it. The fact the ARU are obviously targeting a year below and between the league rep format shows their intent to broaden their cathment. It will be great to see how many non private school boys go through. For what it's worth the ongoing talk of Schools v ARU is pretty mis guided. The ARU actually has a very good relationship with most rugby playing schools. The fact that schools, parents and boys and the ARU seek to do what they believe is in their best interests will likely never change. The biggest thing that many miss in this argument is that most of the decisions that boys , families, schools take in regard to how much rugby they play outside school comes down to work load and also possibly cramming in some study in year 11 and 12. At the top level boys cannot play 1st/ 2nd xv rugby and run out for a club or district rep game the next day, add training etc it gets a bit hard. If you want to burn out these players and see them walk from th egame totally because they are sick of it, thats a good way to go about it. Anyway, well done ARU, its a great start to what we all hope will provide an additional and clearer pathway, and a way to hopefully engage boys from outside the game.

 

[behindthescenes]

Mate im sorry, im just stating the obvious. Like you said, If the JGC purpose is to provide opportunities for boys who aren't at elite schools, that's fine, keep it for the regional areas. The Australian Schoolboys Union team will never have a demographic like the league, and it doesn't need to. If you were to look at the primary schools of the boys who play in the Oz union schoolboys, you will find a much more diverse range of schools and areas. Then they go to the schools with the best programs. In Brisbane and Sydney, League is club based during the teenager years, and Union is school based.

 

[BORED]

The Brisbane U15 and U17 sides have been announced - check the QRU website for squad lists. Not sure how many boys trialled, but it doesn't appear too many have missed out. There are names of boys on these lists who play in the Bs and Cs at AIC schools. This is a great opportunity for these boys, but you can hardly call this an elite program. Any GPS school would put 50 points on these JNR Gold Brisbane teams. There's been a bit of chat on this thread about the 16s not having a comp, well I wouldn't worry about that, many of the names in the 17s squad are 16 year olds. It appears as though Terrace are the only GPS/AIC school who have released players from their starting 1stXV.

Surely the ARU realize that in Brisbane the GPS and AIC schools are pumping loads of money and resources into their rugby programs and are getting great results - look at our AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLBOYS team over the last few years. Unless these 'elite programs' can offer something of better quality than they are getting at school, than what value do you get out of it? I realise not all boys listed are at GPS OR AIC schools, but the BJRU state champs involves a lot of these boys.

The ARU need to leave the Brisbane and Sydney schools to spend up big and do the work for them. Invest the resources and money into an elite colts program - that's where we're losing our players. This Jnr gold cup is probably best for just the regional areas- Brisbane and Sydney have enough pathway opportunities from 15s-17s already.

IGS have 3-4 boys in the U/17 Qld squad from the starting XV from last year

 

[Druid]

Mate im sorry, im just stating the obvious. Like you said, If the JGC purpose is to provide opportunities for boys who aren't at elite schools, that's fine, keep it for the regional areas. The Australian Schoolboys Union team will never have a demographic like the league, and it doesn't need to. If you were to look at the primary schools of the boys who play in the Oz union schoolboys, you will find a much more diverse range of schools and areas. Then they go to the schools with the best programs. In Brisbane and Sydney, League is club based during the teenager years, and Union is school based.

You do realize, in Sydney anyway, that there are thousands of kids playing Rugby who for various reasons do not go to a Private school. Should these kids not be offered a pathway? Many of these kids if given the chance at an elite training program may well grow and develop under these programs and excel to higher levels. Many of the kids who play Oz schoolboys do not go on and play for the Wallabies, that talent must come from somewhere else. If the programs in the Private Schools are better than the JGC then the kids from the Private Schools are being taken care of and won't trial and these opportunities will be taken up by others. Is broadening the base of players being exposed to these types of programs such a bad thing.

 

[Nessie]

The program is in its infancy so I guess we have all got to support and see how it goes. Hopefully the ARU will take onboard feedback/ comments from coaches, schools, clubs, players and parents and refine the program where necessary.
Does seem rushed to me though and the actual timing FEB/March just doesn't seem right to me.
U15's brisbane squad looks good with a group of boys within the list I have not seen or heard of so that is a positive.

Best of luck to all participating.

 

[behindthescenes]

Isn't there club rep sides in Sydney and Brisbane for these boys who don't play school rugby? Lets look at the bigger picture here - everyone seems to be worried about losing kids to other codes, and in particular, kids not playing rugby once they finish school. You mentioned there are thousands of kids playing club in Sydney who don't go to private schools - that's fantastic. I believe the real issue here is losing both the kids playing club and also the kids attending rugby schools once they finish school- hence why I believe the resources and funding from the ARU needs to be pumped into the colts programs rather than this JNR Gold program. Could have a similar look than the current model but be for 18/19 year olds, where a bit of travel and playing for a rep team, could be more attractive than playing colts on a cow paddock with your girlfriend and dog watching.

Trying to mirror what league is doing won't work because of the elite school programs. Wait until they have finished school (whether it be a rugby school or not) and then work with.